Welding an open Miata diff?
 

So if everything I've read is correct, the diff on my car should be open. If that's the case, I want to weld it.

I did a search and came up with no results on welded diff/spider gears.

Do some of you just accept that you're 1 wheel peel, or do you all spend the $ to upgrade, or perhaps, you're all fortunate enough to check into those type of details before you purchase your car. (I'm not that smart/I didn't care because I got a good deal)

So, in this thread we discuss welding a diff on a miata that will be a weekend toy, has a big chinese turbo w/ no supporting mods, and is owned by someone who shouldn't be allowed to drive on public roadways - me.

I more/less want to do it because 1 wheel peel is no fun. I want to leave black markS. I want traction when my boost comes in at 4500rpm. :loser:

Last reason I want to do it?

"I live my life a quarter mile at a time." :giggle:

Anyone have experience?

ask Vin Diesel

He lives his life a quarter mile at a time too.

you didn't even vote man... how can I take you seriously?

retard.

if steering doesn't matter a lot to you, go right ahead.

Matthew, do not judge this man. I visited Florence (northern KY) quite a bit, heard a bunch of retards peeling out constantly all night long outside my hotel. I guess now it makes sense!

Weld away friend.

*edit- thank you for allowing us to actually vote you as retarded!

I do believe the steering wheel controls the front wheels... and the diff is in the rear of a Miata?

Yes, that's what I remember seeing last time I was under the car.


I realize it will "ratchet" around turns, I do not care.

Which hotel, I can tell you if you were in a bad spot or not. I live in Florence "Y'all".


I just want the car to be maximum fun for minimum $.

Then no need to create a poll. Do it then....
As a matter of validity though....my car sure changed steering characteristics when I installed a Torsen. It will change.....

Well, I'm planning to do it, I just wanted to start a thread so that maybe people could referrence it/search and find results in the future when wondering about open diff solutions.

Let me ask this though, because I've never driven a welded diff car.

If I plan to SCCA the car a few times, will be be a PITA drift machine around every hairpin/chicago box, and will I want to urinate on it after getting slowest time of the day? Should any of that matter, since this is the easiest and cheapest solution to a problem that I don't intend on fixing "the right way"?

...I can always upgrade later anyway should I change my mind about doing a more serious build.

I'd like if someone could chime in on this one too.

What about the axels?

I come from the world of F-Body's where spools and welded diffs are a casual conversation topic... but those are live rear ends, not IRS.

Is this going to cause other parts to fail early (other than tires obviously)

Not a problem... he he. That's how to find what or what doesn't work. You might actually find it works for your driving style....who knows.
I'm not familiar with any of the cons for the axles however.
I am an old Z-28 man myself.....welded diff and 1/2 a quart low in trans. for harder shifts. ;)

no kiddin...

this is without doubt. I had a welded dif in a type III VW, and it blew out cv joints every 3-4 months. Mazda's CVs may not be as weak as VWs, but it will happen eventually.

And if the CV's didn't give....the input shaft was next. 'Bout the size of a pencil. ;)

Redroof Inn - Turfway Road...right down the street from the IRS. Your town has a water tower that says "Florence Ya'll". What the hell is up with that?

Nah, Type F for harder shifts!

y8s, you're helpful. :fawk: ...run along now.

Qckslvr - but these are on the rear, which although it "turns" it doesn't require such an excessive angle as the front tires so there won't be anywhere close to the same amount of stress on these as front CV's. Is it really fair to relate your welded VW diff to a rwd welded diff? Unless yours was rwd. Maybe I should just ask, what's a type III VW?

A 1972 Type III VW was rear engined rear wheel drive. So unless it had a forklift modification in it the transaxle did no steering :D. The car was also called a Square Back, not one of VWs prettier cars.

not mine, but you get the idea
http://www.nadaguides.com/Garage-Blo...e=VW-Type3.jpg

Here you go..... Type III (also known as a Square back)
RWD FTW!
Edit****
/\ HA! Beat me to it...... I suxa at this copy pasty crap.

We HAD a fall festival each year called the "Florence Y'all Festival," I have no clue of the origins but one can assume it was something like, "Y'all come back soon" since we're so close to Ohio and Indiana. They stopped having the festival about 7 years ago though.

I lived in Cleveland for about a year and everyone I met up there knew my hometown when I said it because of that damn water tower. They also somehow relate that to racism, and think everyone in Florence is in the KKK. Maybe it's the red/white stripes on the tower, I don't know.

Turfway Rd. is the heart and soul of this area. It's like our "Main St." I guess you would say. So, that was a bad choice. Ricers hang out in the adjacent lots over by Dick's Sporting Goods and behind RedRoof Inn in the Target parking lot. You were surrounded.

[QUOTE=Project84;384691]Nah, Type F for harder shifts!

QUOTE]
That costs money....... ;)

Well, after seeing the car and paying closer attention to what year you said you had, I presume the parts are hardly comparable in quality/size/strength.

...I do like that thing though. Then again, I'm an equal opportunity car enthusiast.

thanks cockgobbler, but seriously, spend a few dollars on an Rx7 diff and rebuild it and install it.

Might cost you 300 dollars but the performance will outdo any welded BS.

For the time and effort of welding a diff, why would you just replace it? I mean it sounds like you are already wreckless, and out of control anyways. lets weld the diff and make you dangerous as well.

If a reduction of steering or the increased possiability spining out in sweeping turns/ much less any turn is your idea of fun, Hell go fo it. while your at it cause an accident or 2 and maybe kill some people (vehicular manslaughter) is great also. That is if you don't kill yourself first. Then the few hundred dollars you saved on welding the diff can be used pay lawyers to get your ass out of a bind (if it happens).
Lot of if's, but had a friend that did the welded diff drift stuff and rolled a convertiable 240 .....Well she no longer around :( RIP.
So if your life is only worth a couple of hundred bucks then ROCK OUT!

y8s - maybe. They're hard to come by around here in junkyards though, and I'd hate to buy it sight unseen/ebay.

lowboostn - you're bringing me down bro.

this forum is going downhill really fast.

/\ Yep, exactly what I was thinking of....... ;)

I did this to mine and the car is sooo much more fun to drive now. I highly recommend it.

i bet it so fast it twist the framez

If you love plowing into shit..you'll love a welded dif...you cheap shit.

Get a open 1.8 and put a ebay LSD in it....or if you're really set on doing the redneck solution, go for it....make sure to post pics of everything you understeer into though.

I welded up the open diff in my street/race Z28 back in the day, it works fine.

Just make sure you weld the spider gears and not the pinion to the ring gear as seen in the photo here!!!


Good luck.

:bowrofl::bowrofl:

God dammit mrtonyg, why'd you have to tell him what to do, I was looking forward to seeing if he'd actually do that.
http://inlinethumb11.webshots.com/43...425x425Q85.jpg = http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/e...21/photo-2.jpg

Oh so that's not how you weld them?

FUCKING DUH.

ASSuming I'm just a dumbshit because I have a cheap-ass' approach to bandaiding a problem doesn't make any of you look any smarter. Note that.

And now, since I feel remarkably disrespected by the above bullshit, I'm just going to call everyone out and say, "STOP BEING SUCH BIG SORE PUSSY'S."

So I weld my diff, that shit steps out on my EVERYTIME I TURN THE WHEEL. I'm suddenly up for vehicular manslaughter and crashing into everything? Get a clue. I've driven a few cars w/ spools, which basically does the same thing, just not as intensely, and it's something you get used to quickly.

While I'm on the rant...
I'm tired of hearing all you bleeding vag's asking about your $2,000 turbo kits. Complaining you can't get the best of the best shit.

There ARE easier/cheaper solutions to common problems/upgrades that don't require a checkbook. (some are unsafe, or risky, yes)

...I thought you turbo miata guys were kinda hardcore at first, reading about your 250whp 2,500 lb rides... it's a shame it seems like you're a bunch of weiner riders scared to push the limits and spank your cars ass every now and then.

I'm gonna weld the diff. I don't even want to anymore but hell with it. Then I'm going to try to set up a miataturbo meet&greet here in Cincinnati, where I'll pull into the meeting spot, sidestep the car and break the rear end and vehicularly manslaughter all in attendance.

I can't speak for others, but I wouldn't have posted the pic if I thought you were going to take it seriously. I saw the pic a while ago, thought it was funny, and this seemed like a good time/place for it. My assumption was that anyone smart enough to pull a diff from a car would also be smart enough to realize that you wouldn't want to weld it like that. :wavey:

If you weld it, let us know how it goes. I hate an open diff, but I don't think I would personally enjoy driving around w/ a welded diff all the time. Hopefully it works for you.

Since our young friend is not old enough to know the answer to your question, I will fill you in. Way back, a long time ago, that area was in the boonies.

In the late 60's they built the "Florence Mall" (which is still there), and the water tower to provide the new sprawl with H2O. The water tower used to read "Florence Mall". About 20 years ago, some sort of riff happened between the Water Co and the Mall, and the Mall wasn't going to pay to advertise on the water tower any longer. So instead of painting the entire tower, they changed the one letter from M to Y, hence "Y'all". It is the stupidest thing they could have done.

KMag

Sorry man, I just could not let this poor guy screw it up.

DONT do it.. you will wreck your miata one day and all the money you spend will be gone.. i know, i have wrecked my miata after spending all my money and time on it.. dont do it.. A miata is not a heavy f body car.. it will make your miata drive like shit. UNLESS this is DRAG car only and only going staight for a 1/4 mile at a time dont do it.

Finally some positive and meaningful input.

Thanks fellas.

Thanks everyone, you've made this thread worth while.

I was sorta just kidding w/ my last post, just went off the deep end a bit. haha

It's going to be a weekend toy, occasional SCCA car. Not a DD.

I was going to weld it as a quick and easy solution, but now, I'm going to wait a few weeks until it's ready to be beat on at 100% and try to locate an rx7 parts car in the mean time.

What kind of SCCA event do you intend doing with it? You might get your ass kicked out if you start drifting (even unintentionally) out of every corner.

Voted welded diff just to see your next thread.
"Tires: Gone. CVs: Noisy"

Seriously though, I'd like to see you try it if you don't need the rear end or are planning to upgrade it anyway.

Solo. Which has the tightest corners and what not, so, welding it would make for lots of drifting in that situation. And yes, Cincy SCCA would kick me out. haha So strict.


If I find the parts I need to upgrade, I'll weld it and see how it handles, might just drive it like that until it fails.

I'll go one further ;)

I remember hearing a similar story to yours though, and I could swear I remember seeing it read Florence Mall, but I was born in July 1974, so I really doubt that is possible.

Go work on your cars and stop learning the history of my nowheresville city?

If this was a drag car I'd get it, but what part of welding a diff for autocross use sounds good to you?

LOL. Waiting on all my parts coming in on Tuesday. Hopefully this time next weekend I will be +100 or more whp.

are you 1 wheel peelin boileralum? If so, I can fix you up!

Its been pretty well documented that open differentials can produce equal times to welded differentials in drag racing. In the Ford Focus, a front wheel drive vehicle, race teams went back to an open differential when the torsen provided sub-optimal launch. The torsen is really best for turning, and equalizing grip where total transfer of power can occur when a lateral acceleration induced skid occurs. In an open differential the wheel with the least traction gets the power so you just spin out, but if you keep the tires right at the limit of slip limit on the track where both tires should have equal traction and wheel speed, you will see no difference vs a spool/welded diff.


Also welding the differential completely removes the intended heat treatment of the gears. They will become superhard in some areas, and super soft in others. It also changes the strength of the material. Bottom line, you'd be lucky if it lasted 5000miles of abuse especially with it being used all "Tokyo Drift" style.

The way I see it, when adding more power to a car, there's a limit at which that car at it's stock setup is able to efficiently use that power (ie. put it to the pavement) and a stock open miata diff is no different in this situation.

There's a reason you cannot buy a Z06 with an open diff.

It has? I am sorry but you are way off base.

yet you can get a base vette with pretty much one

I wouldn't say it unless I knew it. When does a differential start working? When tires have have already slipped. When have you failed at the drag strip?? When your tires have actually slipped.

Generally when you race you compensate for time lost in slippage by feathering the clutch from a high RPM position about .1 second ahead of the green. You should just pop throught the light on green, as it hits, and your tires should be LOCKED together not because of a fancy differential but because your delivering power to the ground. If your tires are peeling at all your E.T. is literally going up in smoke. It takes energy you don't have to spare, and ESPECIALLY to the 60 foot line.

Now like I said, if your doing it right, your differential should not be doing anything else but transferring power to both wheels equally whether you have an open, welded, torsen, or spool.

i love the crazy responses this question is generating. it has some people going nazi crazy with stories of death and dismemberment at the hands of a welded diff!!! just awesome!
let me just say, i want an lsd. i really want a 1.5 way clutch type, but since i can't afford one, i welded (had it done) my diff. and have made my car faster and more fun in all types of situations and competitive events. unlike most of the crazies posting on here, i actually have personal experience to draw from rather than lame hearsay. if you turbocharge your car, your gonna need it. if not, you really don't.
i auto-x my car and dropped 1 sec. from open diff. it would not hook up at all coming out of the corners until i was going straight. the only place the diff. is a negative is in super tight turns (like a box turn) even so, i made up more time getting on the gas earlier.
i have done an scca rally-x event. there's no way i could have done as well with an open diff.
i have gone drag racing. of course it hooked up way better than it would have without the welded diff.
i run pca (porsche club of america) time trials events. we run on airfields usually 1.8,2.3,2.9,3.3 mile courses setup. i am usually one of the faster cars out there, even in the company of 50,60,100 thousand daollar cars.
i run in nasa time trial/hpde events. again my car is very fast and competitive against cars that would seem out of reach for a little miata. there's always people coming over and looking under the hood to see what i could possibly have to beat their supercar. feels nice. some people like it, some hate it.
i have drifted the car, practice only. will be going to an event in the next few months. already know guys that have drifted miatas and say it works great. which i already know because i have been practicing.
i daily drive the car. so i need it to work. everytime i buy a good daily, someone offers me too much $$$ to pass up. so i have to drive my 200k '95 miata everyday. (100k turbocharged miles!) i have not had any axle or driveline/diff. issues. i run royal purple gear max and change it every spring. i have put 25,000 miles on my car and drive to all these events which are 140-350+ miles each way.
those are all the pros's and yes i have driven and raced in the rain and have never had a problem with spinning or loss of control.
now the cons: when you turn sharp in a parking lot, the tires chirp. if you're hauling ass into a box turn at a tight auto-x track it will understeer. if it's wet it will understeer more. that's it. oh, one more thing, i run r-comps now, so i run street tires (on the street) now. when i used to run max summer street tires and turned sharply in a parking lot, the tires would pound on the pavement because of the grip. sounded like it was going to spit the diff out on ground, but never has had a problem, but it is annoying.
so make up your own mind about what to do, but don't listen to bulllshit hearsay to makeup your mind. if you have the cash for an lsd get it, if not weld it. just have someone that knows what they are doing to work on it. like i said i can only tell you what i experienced, maybe my drivetrain just happened to be freakishly strong? but it has 200k mi.

and no, the car doesn't understeer on a real track and it doesn't buck and jerk or whatever that guy said on long sweepers. you wouldn't even know it was welded out on a track.

hear is a few vids of the car in action:

texas world speedway

YouTube - tws aug.2008 nasa hpde

redline time attack/gt live @ virgina international raceway
suby i pass at the end is a 345whp gutted/built racecar!
the suby's that pass me are 500-600awhp unlimited class cars! the orange one is crawford racing driven by tarzan yamada! it sounds like a v8.

YouTube - vir time attack practice 3

scca auto-x time attack '08 (short course due to # of entries)

YouTube - best run 2008 time attack

Well, I don't have porsche time attacks under my belt. But a suzuki sidekick I welded up for a friend of mine (yea I commited the sin don't stone me) Skipped every 90* turn, and would immidiately light the inside tire and go absolutely uncontrollable on an on ramp if you went 5mph above the posted limit. Amazing how much better the traction was on pavement whenever you didn't have the equivalent of a 5in rear sway bar in the back with flat tires.

Too many factors (from human to mechanical) keep this from happening in the less than perfect real world...which is why engineers developed LSD type diffs.

What tires do you run?

Open Diff..... Naturally Aspirated Street Mod 2 Champion for Texas Region
Who needs a welder when input is more important than the mod?

Edit*** The popping was due to a failed eccentric bolt on the control arm due to "awesome" grip setup. Polys are in.

-Open diffs will make your car push so hard it'll give birth
-But it won't matter, because your stock 1.6 diff will just break anyway
-If you seriously care about handling on a budget, get an Rx7 LSD.

exactly why i said, ''if your gonna keep it na, don't weld it'' my turbo car would not accelerate until i was going perfectly straight or i would have to accelerate at your car's pace to keep from roasting the inside tire.
that's cool you won your championship. . i won my class in 2007 for the south texas border region scca. didn't really run in '08 except for a couple special events. real tracks with other cars and 1hr.+ of seat time per day is way more fun.
olderguy: i've tried alot of tires. most were good. best street/trackday tire, handsdown, is the dunlop z1 star spec.
i was running with modified porsche's, gutted/swaped civics, cmc class mustangs and camaro's and a bunch of other fast cars, and they were all on hoosiers or r-comps. and i was on dunlops that i drove to the track!
anyways, now i'm on ra-1's at the track. and dunlop dz101 for street are great tires. but i've loved the bfg R1's and yokohama a038r's, and have had azenis rt-615, hankook rs2's,goodyear bias ply slicks, hankook and hoosier slicks, and a bunch of others. i really would love some 225/45/15 nitto nt-01's on 15x9 6ul's though!

/\ Congrats neighbor! Yep, moved on to more seat time venues myself and have since gone Torsen and suspension, etc., etc.
This is what I mainly do at the moment..... Cheers!