What front hubs to buy
Hey guys,
I want to replace my front hubs sooner than later and I'm trying to see how much it will cost me. I want to do hubs + AMSOil grease + TSE brake duct shields + ARP extended wheel studs all at once to make life easy. So, is there any reason to NOT buy the cheapest hubs I can find? Cheapest being about $65 a pair from eBay. http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-FRONT-LEFT...ht_6306wt_1211 Or should I spend a little bit more for Timken/Centric/some other brand? |
Search around in hustlers thread, he's been around some hubs and had succes with the cheap(er) ones and Amsoil grease iirc.
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Yeah I know he said the cheapest Chinese ones are perfect when repacked. I'm just curious if $65 for 2 hubs is the cheap he had in mind.
Kind of "this is so cheap there's gotta be something wrong with them so I better ask". |
Originally Posted by soviet
(Post 881065)
Yeah I know he said the cheapest Chinese ones are perfect when repacked. I'm just curious if $65 for 2 hubs is the cheap he had in mind.
Kind of "this is so cheap there's gotta be something wrong with them so I better ask". |
Is the only advantage of "blueprinting" your hub, or repacking it with grease, longevity on the track with long races/sessions?
I always run on the track in groups, so my car has a little time to cool down. Do the TSE brake ducts also cool the hubs? |
Originally Posted by Joe Mauch
(Post 917135)
Is the only advantage of "blueprinting" your hub, or repacking it with grease, longevity on the track with long races/sessions?
I always run on the track in groups, so my car has a little time to cool down. Do the TSE brake ducts also cool the hubs? I've always like how shops say they "blue-print" the hubs, yet all I read says they either heat-treat them a second time and repack grease, or just repack them. |
Our suspicion is that the vast majority of hub heat comes from the brakes, so our duct kits should help with hub longevity.
Blueprinting the hub should go as far as mixing/matching bearings sets to get matched diameter sets - that helps significantly with longevity. Beyond that it's just repacking with good grease (Amsoil2000). |
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 917139)
Our suspicion is that the vast majority of hub heat comes from the brakes, so our duct kits should help with hub longevity.
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How about $400 for a pair of blueprinted hubs.
Flyin' Miata : Chassis : Suspension components : ART blueprinted front hub |
Originally Posted by Vashthestampede
(Post 917287)
How about $400 for a pair of blueprinted hubs.
Flyin' Miata : Chassis : Suspension components : ART blueprinted front hub |
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 917298)
They won't last forever, and I would order them from ART without the studs and then add your own ARP parts, but they're the best off-the-shelf option available right now.
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So you're saying the only guy who makes them professionally has horrible customer service when the products don't perform. Great...
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ART kind of disappeared. We called his personal cell a few months ago because his site was down and the business number went to some other company name. Ended up he was in Europe for something and everything would be fixed later. Last I checked the site was back up but the checkout didnt work. I wanted to order his studs since the coating doesnt just flake off like the ARP ones. And at least for a car running stock size wheels and 225 hoosiers they last significantly longer than timkin hubs. That car used to eat hubs in like 3 events and the ART ones he could get almost a whole season between 100 buck rebuilds irrc. I'm not fast enough/dont make enough grip to kill hubs that fast.
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Planet Miata also sells hubs, I think they are a little cheaper than ART
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Are the bearings the only major point of failure on the hubs?
My car isn't manly enough to eat them at your guy's levels (1 failure in 2 years). :giggle: |
Any linky to how to repack the hubs or is it fairly straightforward? What is the amsoil grease you guys use?
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What's wrong with the Timken ones? They seem to be pretty middle of the road, i have them on my lowered daily and are doing better than OEM. The build quality is also good.
Using those with some ducting or a ducting kit should solve problems. I can see heat being our issue, as we don't run stupid -89 camber, with dumb low offset wheels, wheel spacers, slammed to the ground ect. all at once. |
Originally Posted by mtbgael
(Post 918364)
Any linky to how to repack the hubs or is it fairly straightforward? What is the amsoil grease you guys use?
AMSOIL - Series 2000 Synthetic Racing Grease (GRG) |
Originally Posted by soviet
(Post 881065)
Yeah I know he said the cheapest Chinese ones are perfect when repacked.
I only point out the specifics because I remember using his input when buying mine. I think they were ~$85 - $90 shipped from a place like Detroit Axle. More specifically, I remember seeing some that did not appear to have been heat-treated. |
Originally Posted by hustler
(Post 917320)
No thanks on ART. I spent too much money for him to tell me "sorry". I sent him Timkens and he sent me two bearings that lasted one weekend. I hope the FM style warranty is better than what he didn't offer for me.
I've got ART hubs on both cars. I had one fail on Rover and he sent me a replacement for the cost of shipping. Kindly stop whining about how your desire to save a few bucks on the core bearings bit you in the ass. |
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 918534)
So you sent him your own bearings because you cheaped out, and then cry about it incessantly when he told you that your bearings were the reason they failed?
I've got ART hubs on both cars. I had one fail on Rover and he sent me a replacement for the cost of shipping. Kindly stop whining about how your desire to save a few bucks on the core bearings bit you in the ass. Plus the ducting kit *which i think would help in any scenario and would recommend to anyone.* |
The best bearings are probably OEM, repacked with Amsoil2000 grease, and then add real ARP studs. A little cheaper than ART and a bit better (better grease), but a lot more work.
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The balls in stock/replacement OTS hubs have a big variation in ball diameter. Mic them and see. So what happens is the three largest balls take the vast majority of the load in the bearing while the rest are just along for the ride. The three balls get pissed off at this, locally heating the living christ out of the grease, the grease fails, the bearing fails.
So for our LeMons car we now roll our own hubs -- take one crusty old but serviceable hub, replace balls with new higher-grade balls (higher grade = less variation in diameter), pack in zoomy grease (I like Mobilith SHC220), done. Save for one freak ball failure (it fractured clean in two!), no more failed hubs. |
Where do you acquire your balls?
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Karters go nuts for bearing setups.
I know it's comparing apples to llamas, but it's pretty interesting to read about their ceramic bearings: Boca Bearing Company :: Ceramic Bearing Specialists Looking at their application page, they must not be strong enough for automotive use. |
The secret behind the ART hubs is the ball bearings themselves. Ball bearings are graded based on roundness. The factory ones are more egg shaped than the ART ones. I forget the grading numbers of each but the difference is big. Add a good grease and you have the best case scenario for a weak part
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Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 918534)
So you sent him your own bearings because you cheaped out, and then cry about it incessantly when he told you that your bearings were the reason they failed?
I've got ART hubs on both cars. I had one fail on Rover and he sent me a replacement for the cost of shipping. Kindly stop whining about how your desire to save a few bucks on the core bearings bit you in the ass. |
Originally Posted by soviet
(Post 918477)
BTW- I'm going to enjoy your old suspension once I have an engine in the car :bigtu: |
The egay hubs on my car are still working great after about 1000 track miles or so...i have plenty of hose ducting and don't have to do too much braking either :)
and we'll see how long they last after the car is running again...I'll probably repack some new ones when I replace them. |
Originally Posted by JKav
(Post 918577)
So for our LeMons car we now roll our own hubs -- take one crusty old but serviceable hub, replace balls with new higher-grade balls (higher grade = less variation in diameter), pack in zoomy grease (I like Mobilith SHC220), done.
Originally Posted by czubaka
(Post 918586)
Where do you acquire your balls?
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Dunno if this link is going to work: Welcome to TimkenStore.com!
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I bought a sackful of balls (a ballsack?) a couple years ago, can't recall where, might have been here. There are a half dozen vendors online selling loose balls.
Balls are standardized items based on diameter, material and grade. I think the stock balls work out to a G100 grade. So buy G10; that's an order of magnitude reduction in variation. You can also choose from a few common ball materials in terms of hardness/load capacity/cost. There's plain ol' chromium steel (aka 52100; probably what the stock ones are). The next step up is M50 tool steel. Then silicon nitride (ceramic). |
What size are our balls? I really don't want to remove them to check the size (ouch!).
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1 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack
(Post 918521)
You may have picked up on this but someone else reading this thread that hasn't read Hustler's tela novella might not have, but I believe Hustler more accurately said the cheapest Chinese hubs that have been heat-treated should be an improvement when re-packed with the Amsoil grease.
I only point out the specifics because I remember using his input when buying mine. I think they were ~$85 - $90 shipped from a place like Detroit Axle. More specifically, I remember seeing some that did not appear to have been heat-treated. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1347221117 |
Just get cheap ones and replace as needed, because by the time you shell out $$ for ARTs you will have someone drive into your front wheel and damage the part. Ask me how I know.
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Originally Posted by Jkav
Balls are standardized items based on diameter, material and grade. I think the stock balls work out to a G100 grade. So buy G10; that's an order of magnitude reduction in variation.
Thanks, Jkav. For those of us who don't deal with material specification in this area this is all useful information.
Originally Posted by czubaka
(Post 919786)
What size are our balls? I really don't want to remove them to check the size (ouch!).
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0.4375" is what I measured using a caliper. This was on a hub that came off of my car at ~180k miles so I have no idea if it was OEM or not.
I got a cheap hub once that had smaller balls in it so I'd measure your own balls before ordering. ;) |
Do I measure with, or without ...
I'm sorry, that ain't right. Lord please forgive me. Save the Pigmys in New Guinea. |
Originally Posted by Ski_Lover
(Post 925568)
Do I measure with, or without ...
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I measured some bearings and they were 0.4055 inch which is very close to 0.40625 or 13/32".
100 of them for $17.77 100 13/32" inch Diameter Chrome Steel Ball Bearing G10 Ball Bearings I think these ones were stock 190k miles ones from a 91. I have another set of new ebay hubs, so I'll measure those |
also for about $100 you can get super-mega-duper high grade ceramic balls. G5 grade is super baller, too.
20pcs 13/32" 10.318mm Ceramic Diff Bearing Balls Si3N4 GRADE 5 G5 | eBay |
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theres some talk in spec miata forum about ceramic bearings but nothing concrete
Spec Miata Community: New Wheel hubs |
I may go ceramic when i re-do mine this winter. Got to get every advantage I can. Going ceramic would be a great way to drop a couple ounces of UN-sprung and rotating mass. What are you going to do for replacing the races?
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Well not so much of weight as much as heat. That would help a lot.
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Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 925894)
What are you going to do for replacing the races?
As far as I understand, the way the hubs work is that the races are pressed against the balls by the axle nut - if that makes sense. |
The races wear as well as the balls. But they dont wear as fast. I guess you can get multiple uses out of them and just replace the whole hub when you feel the races are done for.
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I'm starting with brand new hubs, these to be exact
90-05 Mazda Miata Front Wheel Hub & Bearing Assembly Pair Set | eBay They have discoloring on the casing, similar to how stainless steel exhaust parts do, so I'm guessing they have been heat treated. The most expensive part in a hub, btw, is the rear seal. They are expensive new and not trivial to take out without damaging. So you fuck up that seal, and you're out of a hub. Ask me how I know. My only question about ceramic balls - can they handle the load...? |
Seeing that nascar, formula 1, indy, and i think top fuel dragsters use ceramic bearings, i'd say they will be fine.
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They should have a load rating listed.
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Yeah there are bearings, and there are bearings. I'd want to see the load rating.
Edit: I have no doubt the F1 bearings are shweet. But I'd like to see known examples of specific ceramic bearings surviving a race season is what I meant. For miatas. |
1 Attachment(s)
Ceramic Ball Bearing vs Steel Ball Bearings
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1347539480 http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...hese-5018.html Btw guys i'm not trying to convince anyone, i'm just posting shit as i find it. |
LOL It's from ecomodder. Come to think of it I remember on one of my forums hearing about a guy who had an STS miata. He replaced every bearing he could come up with with ceramic and gained several HP on the dyno. I'm talking transmission, wheel, and rear diff.
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Well its about longevity rather than the possible 4-5 whp you'll gain.
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Found this interesting paper comparing steel bearing balls vs Si3N4 balls
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA412842 TL;DR - for same size balls, ceramic balls have longer median time before failure - at least 6 times more. For the SNHB test data. Table 2 summarizes the K-factor and median lifetimes at 50% 90% and 95% confidence levels. Also shown is the ratio of median lifetimes for the SNHBs to the reference steel bearing median life of 587 hours. The distributions at the 50%, 90%, and 95% confidence levels are obtained by inserting the respective median lives of 7130, 3954, and 3130 hours into TR in Eq. (16). Also plotted in Figure 1 are the experimental data points for the steel and hybrid bearings. As mentioned above, the values from Table 1 allow the ranking and plotting of the hvbrid bearing data. Bearings Si3N4 bearing parts Silicon nitride bearings are both full ceramic bearings and ceramic hybrid bearings with balls in ceramics and races in steel. Silicon nitride ceramics have good shock resistance compared to other ceramics. Therefore, ball bearings made of silicon nitride ceramic are used in performance bearings. A representative example is use of silicon nitride bearings in the main engines of the NASA's Space Shuttle.[21][22] Silicon nitride ball bearings are harder than metal which reduces contact with the bearing track. This results in 80% less friction, 3 to 10 times longer lifetime, 80% higher speed, 60% less weight, the ability to operate with lubrication starvation, higher corrosion resistance and higher operation temperature, as compared to traditional metal bearings.[20] Silicon nitride balls weigh 79% less than tungsten carbide balls. Silicon nitride ball bearings can be found in high end automotive bearings, industrial bearings, wind turbines, motorsports, bicycles, rollerblades and skateboards. Silicon nitride bearings are especially useful in applications where corrosion, electric or magnetic fields prohibit the use of metals. For example, in tidal flow meters, where seawater attack is a problem, or in electric field seekers.[13] Si3N4 was first demonstrated as a superior bearing in 1972 but did not reach production until nearly 1990 because of challenges associated with reducing the cost. Since 1990, the cost has been reduced substantially as production volume has increased. Although Si3N4 bearings are still 2–5 times more expensive than the best steel bearings, their superior performance and life are justifying rapid adoption. Around 15–20 million Si3N4 bearing balls were produced in the U.S. in 1996 for machine tools and many other applications. Growth is estimated at 40% per year, but could be even higher if ceramic bearings are selected for consumer applications such as in-line skates and computer disk drives.[20] |
Originally Posted by triple88a
(Post 926558)
Well its about longevity rather than the possible 4-5 whp you'll gain.
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Originally Posted by mtbgael
(Post 926383)
LOL It's from ecomodder. Come to think of it I remember on one of my forums hearing about a guy who had an STS miata. He replaced every bearing he could come up with with ceramic and gained several HP on the dyno. I'm talking transmission, wheel, and rear diff.
One of the reasons I did the bearing swap was I was watching trans, diff, rear hub and CV temps and at 90k miles they were all a little too high. FWIW, there was some talk about ceramics and I didn't dissuade anyone from thinking I did them. Sort of a competitive phych. |
Just wondering if Soviet or anyone tried going with the G10 replacement steel balls in the ebay hubs? My right front is starting to make noise on my MSM, and I was wondering if this would be worth or try, or just do the plain repack with Amsoil?
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is the size .4375 or .4065?
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