How much would an adapter plate cost that used the front bellhousing of the 6 speed and mate to an RX7 FD?

I'm sure the aluminum plate could be had for a reasonable price from McMaster-Carr. Flowjet/CNC could be expensive.

If you could get an adapter plate for sub $300, seems like it might be worth it.

Is a high pitched whine when accelerating 2-4k rpm in 1st gear normal? I just picked up a 01 LS w/ 6-spd and plan on adding forced induction soon but want to make sure the trans is healthy!

Something T5 based, if it becomes necessary.

I had a brief conversation regarding tranny health with TDH at Streets this weekend. He put a temp sender in his 6-speed after the first one blew and he says tranny temps at Buttonwillow hit 340*F and were still climbing when he pulled in.

That sure sounds high, I have one on mine and I have never seen anything higher than 270*F.

I'm actually interested in improving the 5-speed but it seems like there are a lot of knowledgeable people in this thread and the following could be mutually beneficial.

Apparently, the MSM 6-speed gears are "shot-peen-hardened", but what else is done or can be done to our gears? Are regular gears just induction hardened or is any carburized case hardening done? I think shot peening and cryo treating could help, I feel like I've heard some very reasonable pricing for it too.

Also, making a set of straight cuts from available spur gear stock could be an option? Even if maybe the original gear hub/center had to be used? (I know that's kinda out there, but you'd be surprised at what you can do with "creative" machining, some GTAW, and an Australian mindset) $1799 isn't awful for the quaife set either if you've made the 6-speed a consumable...

Anyone tried a transmission cooler yet?

McMaster-Carr's nice, convenient, very fast, and well suited to all your INDUSTRIAL needs, but OnlineMetals.com or METALsupermarkets.com are more specialized and have much better pricing, especially for small quantities.

^^ Thread Necromancer

BUT - since it's alive -

If you built - I'd buy. You might see who expresses intrest in getting something going.
I can't justify $3000 for Quaife internals in a 5spd case when you can get a 6spd for $600 or cheaper... but how long with either those handle 400+rwhp - or less as your case Sav?

You can get mini power steering bump from junk yard, add 12V @2-5Amp motor to that. Use a relay and thermal switch to trigger the contraption. It will have plenty of pressure so you could also add oil filter if you like. The regular tranny cooler that you can get is usable, and can add a cooling fan to it as well. Add a second thermal switch and have a light installed in the cabin, if system cannot cool the tranny, then light should come on and tell you that temp is too high and its going to blow soon.

I am building said oil pump, but for jet engine application. Most pumps you can buy are on a budget are diaphragm based and cannot handle above 120F fluid usually.

I got one from junk yard for 6 bucks, and electric motor for like 30 like this one http://www.robotmarketplace.com/prod...-217-2000.html

If you de-powered steering, then you can use the unused power steering pump for that using engine power.

If there is interest, I can document the electric pump build. Otherwise, I probably wont.

Transmission cooler would be pretty light duty. The power steering pump is really awesome since the only "superior" option of maybe an idealized custom aluminum scroll or gear pump would be only marginally better, but a CIM?! That is one heavy chunk of inefficiency... The only reason I'd ever use one would be if weight and power consumption weren't a concern and it was left over from a FIRST robotics competition build.... The chinese and their cost-superior manufacturing (which has really made some increases in quality, for most** things "made in USA" might as well mean over-priced) make brushless motors and their controllers very affordable. (www.hobbyking.com and/or ebay for motor, controller and a servo tester to set your speed) Direct-drive brushless outrunner would be a much better choice for a DIY performance automotive application.

Geez, GeneSplicer you could've at least read my necromancing post :D The quaife internals go for $1799 now, which is still pricey and "while they last", but considering they have significantly less of a helical cut (= less thrust + more cool racecar gearbox noise) the 5spd case rigidity doesn't really matter as much, if anything the 5spd and its buttery smooth shifts would be the preferred transmission for our top end lacking flow choked motors.

I think* the EFR turbo line is going to do a little bit of "game changing" too. Not only will the highly responsive 6258 start to push the BP past 6spd power handling capabilities, after talking to one of the techs over at full-race I believe the T3 7064 could be a midrange friendly turbo with the correct intake manifold and light headwork.

Brushless motors came to mind, but they require controller. CIM was an example. I have couple of those motors. I was thinking more of low parts count, simple and cheap. I did not do motor calculations yet for my application. But for low pressure and low volume, not that much power is required.

Where you lookin?

earlier in this thread :noob: http://www.autotech.com/quaife/news.htm

I assume you'd have to contact quaife though.


I was being a little "excessive" ha in my criticism, because I have a passionate hatred for the CIM even though it's an okay motor for e-bikes/scooters/robots. I don't like the stall currents of the big brushed chunks when they "kick on" (http://www2.usfirst.org/2004comp/Specs/Chiaphua.jpg look at the performance curve and specs) you could always have a starting cap like a home a/c I guess but you'd end up adding 10-15lbs with the mounted cim powered ps pump assembly. Which reminds the power steering pump is a little on the heavy side + the cooler and added fluid + optional filter.... maybe a heat exchanger a little centrifugal pump if anything... actually... helical gears are lame to death and are the cause of all this friction heat and nasty thrust loads.

Conclusion: Straight cuts or GTFO haha. Unless someone happens to know the exact center spacing of the input and output shafts, I'm going to see if there isn't some affordable spur gear stock with the appropriate pitch diameters as soon as I open my transmission and check the spacing. I know a few places where I could get some time on a proper lathe; it'd be a long shot, but I think if I chucked the transmission shaft (with the gear(s) being turned secured onto it) in a 4-jaw with a live center, used a good dial indicator to zero the runout, turned the gears off, put 1-2° taper on the turned outer diameter with the cross-slide, then turned the inner diameter of the spur gear .001"-.002" undersize with a matched taper for a well aligned press-fit, then weld and case-harden the gears a pretty badass gearset could be had for a low material cost and utilizing tooling that's more or less just collecting dust...

Little known fact, helical gears are superior to spur gears at given width and pitch. Since the contact patch of helical gear is much larger per tooth. They also have higher tolerance to shock loading since more that one tooth is engaged at any time. A good old example were in tank transmissions. Panzer tank had straight cut gears, and suffered from stripped gears too often.

Then again, crazy people do crazy things. So if you got money to burn, go for it.

at given pitch* I'm not as well versed with involute gear tooth profiles as I would like to be, but I want to say there's some reason you have to use a higher pitch with helical gears? Regardless, assuming I can find them, I will be using a lower pitch for strength and avoiding helical cuts for cost and mechanical efficiency.

If you want to find out the distance between shafts in the transmission. You can calculate it from knowing what # tooth is there. Basically only 2 different combination of gears can only have single pitch. Given that gears have exact same pitch. So if you know the gear ratios for each gear or better the tooth count, then you can calculate the pitch and then the distance between shafts. It should be metric too.

We found this to be the case in the T5/TKO world also. Everyone bragged about the straight cut gears, but they barely lasted a pass, let alone an entire weekend.

I have thought about this some and recently bought another 6 speed to try out my ideas on. Roughly it is to strengthen the gears and reduce friction then reduce temps.
I plan to cryo then shot peen the gears. Haven't decided about REM on the gears yet but will WPC treat them as the final step.
I hope to use a transmission cooler and will probably use a mocal or rbracing gear based pump vs a diaphram based pump especially with temps over 350 degrees. I don't know if the smaller in line mocal pump flows enough or not.
Haven't decided where to mount the cooler.

No reason at all really, beyond manufacturing. For whatever reason CNC gear cutters are more common in smaller sizes, and vise versa for the manual machines, it's easier to find bigger machines. CNC isn't required for helical, but makes it much easier for multiple (rough and finish) passes. I believe the largest helical I've cut is 5 d.p.. Could be off, +/- a pitch.

I believe people's choice between straight and helical gears has more to do with the shaft strength. If you're putting a lot of power through a helical system that can take the side ways forces, straight is better. But if the shafts aren't strong enough, they'll push apart and shatter.

Nothing. Nobody has done anything other than Quaife gearset. There are a ton of things that could be done to strengthen it. (Steel case, aluminum tail shaft comes to mind first). None would be cheap.

There is no money in it, so nobody has done shit. Easier to swap another tranny if you make that much power.

In the Corvette world, RPM Transmissions was showing real positive gains for reducing heat from micro-polishing the guts.

If I were a track rat having trans issues, that and Amsoil would be the first place I'd head, then a cooler.

Well I am the one who started this thread a little more than a year ago because of strange rattling noises at high revs and finally something in the 6 speed decided to derange itself on a short drive this evening. It popped out of third by itself and now makes loud gear whine noises in everything but 5th.. The shift knob goes back and fourth a whole lot if you go on or off torque in 3rd. It is not like stripped out teeth on a gear though, no metallic pop corn sounds just gear grind-whine in every gear including neutral and not as much in 5th.

A few weeks ago I broke a clutch fork pivot ball and when I drained it there was a pretty good chunk of a gear tooth on the magnetic drain plug. And then it developed a tick idling around in 1st gear but seemed fine in all the others.

Seven five speeds have succumbed to my power and track use and now one six speed.

Bob

By now you could have just bought a quaife gearset for as much time/cash you've spent. If my 5 speed goes (which I know it will at some point) I'm straight for a quaife gearset.

Beware numbers and math involved:

Lets assume that gear efficiency is 97%. Meaning 3% is wasted and is converted into heat. So let’s assume a car is making 275HP @ 6500 RPM peak, and the HP slope is linear, and torque is constant in the range that we care about of let’s say 4000 to 6500 RPM. So, using magical formula, the average HP that is put into transmission would be 222 HP. ((275*4000/6500)+275)/2 aka [[HP @4000 RPM+HP @6500 RPM] /2]. From those 222 HP, 6.66HP is made into heat, or 4.96kW=~5000W [converted by google]. So, to keep fluid at constant temperature, basically 5kW of heat must be extracted. Compared to your radiator that has to deal with 66.6HP, this is not much. FYI if you have automatic car radiator on a manual car you already have the heat exchanger that you can use, not sure about the exchange rate. Anyways, let’s assume that oil temperature is at 100C, cause its nice temperature. Lower better, but 100C is reasonable in my opinion and exit at 60C. So average temperature of oil would be 80C aka average of the cooler. Lets say you race at moderate high temperatures of say 30C. Heat capacity of air is 1 J/gK and density is 1164 g/m^3 and driving at 50mph, which is 22.35m/s, also J/s=W. Simple math follows, (mass flow rate)mair=density*area(A)*speed=1164*A*22.35=26015 *A [g/s]. Air in and air out we know, so q=1*(80-30)=50 J/g so Q=mair*q=26015*A*50=1300750*A [W]. Lets assume 60% air efficiency, so Q=Q/%=2167916*A. So, Q=Heat, means whatever cooled is whatever generated, keeps temps constant of the fluid. So A=5000/2167916=0.0231m^2=35.8 in^2, let’s assume that oil to cooler exchange happens at 90%, [should have done that before hand], so the A would be 39.7=~40 in^2. Overall efficiency would be 54%, whoever wonders. So 50 in^2 heat exchanger should be sufficient.

So now lets wonder how much oil must pass through the cooler to cool it. So we need to know the oil’s heat capacity best guess I found is 2000 J/gK. So it takes 2000 J to raise/drop temperature of 1 g of oil by 1 deg C/K. Assumptions from before, 100C in, 60C out, temp drop is 40C. So 2000*40=80000J/g. For sake of trying to keep this practical, lets assume that Flex-A-lite Part# 4110 is used, which is 5x12x3/4 core, which is 60in^2 cooler, let’s assume that temp drop and heat exchange the same as before, too lazy to redo for a specific cooler. I know that 5000 W or J/s must exit, so 5000/80000 =0.0625 g/s, density of oil is 840 kg/m^3 =840000g/m^3, so flow rate must be 0.0625/840000=7.4E-8 m^3/s=1.95E-5 gallon/s, or 0.0012 gpm, feels too low, but that’s what math says. Lets assume temperature drop is only 10C, so it becomes 20000 J/g, blah, blah blah, 0.0048 gpm, k, it work, I hope (simple check). So, lets use higher flow rate, 0.003gpm sounds nice, so that’s like 1.92E-7 m^3/s, lets assume about 10 psi needed pressure to drive at the flow rate, 68000Pa, so that’s 0.013 W, pump at 70% eff, that’s 0.019W. So a small 12V motor, if geared properly can drive PS pump and not blow up. For cooling transmission.

For my jet engine, I use .5gpm= with 0.065” orifice @ 40psi@120C= 8.7W. If you wondering, I will try running 1Amp motor, or 5Amp stall current motor, and see what I get. I will measure and see if I got this right or not.

Lets see Wayne 1/6 HP 2,000 GPH Oilless Submersible Utility Water Pump 1/6HP motor, 20Ft head height = 8gpm, 0Ft head height=21gpm(due to pressure differential in a hose), 20ft=240” H2O=8.67psi=59786Pa, 8gpm=5.1E-4m^3/s, P=31W=0.042HP, good similar to example http://www.mcnallyinstitute.com/07-html/7-2.html GPM x TDH / 3960 = WHP=0.0404

Lengthy, yes
Waste of time typing, YES
Haters hate, YES YES

Anyways, if you see a problem let me know.

I exploded my 4th gear a couple weeks ago. I clutch kicked 4th into the bank at Irwindale. It is my 1st 6 speed break.

Which tranny for 350 plus RHWP?
 

I am just completing my Miata build and the car should put down around 350 rwhp. I will be track daying the car exclusively. I currently have a freshly rebuilt 6 speed in the car but it sounds like if this is the tranny I plan on running it i just a matter of time until it blows. Is the consensus get a five speed and do the Quaife gearset? Thanks

At 350whp, it will let go eventually. At my modest power level I'm still going strong.

who has broken a 6 speed
 

Sav was TDH's failure when he was running a turbo (and as I recall more than 250 ftlbs torque) or with his current Rotrex setup with "only" makes ~ ~ 250 ft lbs (albeit at 7k)?

Not many people put down the money for a Quaife.

Problem is there are no Quaife gear sets anywhere for our cars. I was told knowone has them and they are not going to produce more unless there is significant demand. Does anyone have any other options? Any other high HP guys want to chime in? Thanks!!!

What happened to the gear sets FM was selling?

They have not been selling them for a while. I think with the cost, they were not selling enough. I believe you can still custom order them from quaife.

Sav, i've seen and heard of guys with t5s blowing through them (albeit behind a 400 ft/lb tq v8) very quickly. Im wondering what kind of testing you have been doing if any to maybe try to squeeze one in a miata. i mean i have an extra t5 world sitting in my garage and size wise they seem damn close. however i think more of us miata guys would rather see our beloved 5 speeds with their smooth shifting be beefed up with maybe some sort of cheaper quailfe alternative

V8R is using the T5's to reduce weight with great success behind built L33's.

there are a few shops that are making very strong wc t5 boxes, they are about 1300 bucks for the gear sets can be made straight or not, dog engagement or not, and i think that is a very viable option for guys like sav and feaflora making 300+ ft/lbs

something like this, a 2500 dollar trans that can handle about 500 ft/lbs plus a cheapish adapter set up for about 500? make the whole thing run about 3k could be a good place to start

http://www.jegs.com/i/G-Force-Transm...ductId=1343711

There is no such thing as a cheapish adapter setup.

Does anyone have an adapter set up for tranny like this?

Nope - or all us high hp guys would have them. Market for it? Possibly, but you still have to get over the +2000 price tag over a 6spd, just like the Quaife, and many are simply not going to pay that much. Now if the 6spds were as weak as the 5spds, I think that'd be a different story... we'd be forced to look elsewhere.

IF you really wanted to know an estimated price tag, call V8 roadsters and get his input. I'm sure he could build you one.

V8 roadster had no help for our application. I called the US distributor for Quaife and they are going to let me know today if Quaife will make more gears for our cars. If this does not pan out I am going to go with Quaife gear set from FC RX7 as I know they will fit. The input shaft is a little longer but I can work with that. I already had another friend do it with his boosted Miata and he has had no problems. I will keep you posted.

I believe many of you are looking @ the Quaife gear set as just being "stronger" than the OE 5 and 6 speed. It is but it's also a whole lot more. Less parasitic driveline loss due to the gear tooth pitch, better gear ratios for FI and high strung NA Miata's and arguably better shift feel/engagement than the 6 speed could ever hope to have.

Is it expensive, yes. However for a quality part you need to pony up the dough. I did the initial R&D and gear selection for the gear set (option 1) and provided the trans for Quaife to work with. It was up to Quaife for pricing. All in all, $2600.00 for a full gear set (not including new OE wearable items and labor) isn't a bad price for what you get, IMHO.

has anyone successfully welded a BP engine side bell housing to a T5 tranny side housing and used a custom clutch disc? ive been kicking this idea around for a bit cause i plan on 500whp out of a built BP in my 72 spitfire and i dont wanna be replacing trannies constantly like some of my friends turbo miata projects. i figured T5's are everywhere and very cheap all i would need is a bell housing and i would be able to swap it from trans to trans if there was a failure.

i figure a custom clutch disc is maybe 300, good used T5 is maybe 300, diy custom mounts 150 max, new drive shaft yoke 300, put you around 1050. leaving 1550 in the budget for making an adapter bell housing. which may or may not be doable depending on your local welding/machining prices. and if the trans were to fail you would only be out the 300 for a new trans.

Those t5 trans are sloppy though. That is the biggest reason I havent used one. They shift like crap. Everyone I know has to let the rpms drop quite a bit to shift those boxes.

I may just have to spring for a GSR dogbox. I would like to give the queef gears a chance, but I dont know if they will be here in time. At this point $2500 for a gearset that wont break sounds awesome.

I have also thought about the s2ooo tranny. They are pretty cheap and much stronger than our 6 speed. Thoughts?

Adapter plate and drive shaft, done. Clutch would be easy.

Doesn't the s2000 engine turn the opposite direction? Or is that the diff? You might end up with one forward gear and 5 reverse.

I'm kinda suprised - guess he has other LS stuff on his plate, or dares not regress to mating a TKO to a BP... :dunno:

I have been told that the reason FM stopped selling the Quaife gears is that, when put into actual deployment, they didn't turn out to be significantly stronger than the factory gears. I'd be kinda pissed if I paid $3K for a "bulletproof" transmission and then had it fail the same as 5-speeds do...

--Ian

I've got a 5 speed, 6 speed and a wc t5 in my garage right now. I'm working on a bell housing/ custom output shaft for the t5 as we speak

I'm surprised people aren't looking more into RX7 transmission swaps as much. They used to be pretty popular and were done for a "reasonable" amount of money.

As far as I know, there have only been 3 failures relating to the Quaife gear set. In all 3 instances the gears were not used in an na/nb chassis. It was an nc. Further the case mounts failed which caused the seized gears.

Look at Matt Andrews TA Miata. It's still going strong and he's had it since 2008. I've had mine for about the same time and it's still going strong.

I finally got an answer from Quaife and they are producing more gear sets in the end of January. If you order now you will get them 6 weeks later (March). There are currently no sets in the US. That is the good news. The bad news is they are going to run $2400. Although expensive by the time you figure down time and wasted track days when the tranny breaks I guess the best long term option for high horsepower Miata guys.

Seems like it would be cheaper to get a custom adapter and a t56 or tko600 or something similar.

Sequential dogbox or bust

Or this.

Hello from Chile!, I did a RX TII trans swap (and rear end) and it worked great with my 270 RWHP 1.6, now I am upgrading to 400 RWHP built 1.8, hope it can keep up with that power..:ugh: