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Who has broken a 6 speed?
Mine is starting to make bad noises at high revs in 3rd and 4th. Sounds like gear teeth rattling.
Curious if it was the sound of eminent failure. Bob |
thesnowboarder just broke one.
Bob, parts are cheap. I paid $360 in labor and $250 in parts to have my 5/R shift fork, selector, reverse synchro and gear replaced over the winter. Open it up and have it looked at before something goes really bad and wrecks multiple gears. Sounds like I need to find a spare gearbox. |
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 560764)
thesnowboarder just broke one.
Bob, parts are cheap. I paid $360 in labor and $250 in parts to have my 5/R shift fork, selector, reverse synchro and gear replaced over the winter. Open it up and have it looked at before something goes really bad and wrecks multiple gears. Sounds like I need to find a spare gearbox. Sav: Under what conditions was snowboarders six speed when he broke it??? |
i think he downshifted to 3rd....and CABLAM!
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Is there a shop out there in Miataland that knows the ins and outs of building a stronger 6spd box?
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Downshifted to 4th and it let go. He hasn't opened it yet.
Jay, nobody makes/builds a stronger 6-speed box except the MSM boxes with the shotpeened gears. TSB is the first one I know of to fail during road course use. My box looked perfect when I had it open. If I do start breaking stuff, just start filling it with MSM gears. If the gearbox lasts 2 years at these power levels, that's acceptable to me. |
oh yeah! it was 4th, my bad.......
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You guys need to stop this thread.... especially as i just tossed a 6spd in a week or so ago.
Then again... I don't plan on power enough to break a 5spd.... so i better be safe :p |
Bob I have a 6 speed with a broken housing let me know if you need some parts.
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I too just installed a 6 speed after blowing my 5 speed so fingers crossed!
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I should have the new motor in with the 6 speed in a couple weeks, tranny should be broken not long after that I imagine lol.
On a side note, none of my 5 speeds made any noises before breaking. |
I have 16-hours on my 6-speed at 250whp and although I haven't had the best lap times in the world, the car is driven like a warrior. I have no symptoms or noises of any kind.
I also have a metal clutch...which needs to come to an end. TheSnowboardingQueer also had about 300whp if not more going through the trans too. |
My 6 speed is making rattly gear stripping noises at high revs in second and 3rd gear maybe 4th too.
The 5 speeds I have broken 3 different ways. Stripping second or third was just a loud bang at full acceleration right about the point in the RPM range where I am making peak torque. The ones I broke the gear that drives the secondary shaft on all would make loud squealing noises on coast down after a hard use for a little while before Kablamo. I need to get a spare before I take this one out and try and figure out what’s going on. Dang it, driving a Miata this fast is expensive. I can’t afford some of the upgrades I want if I keep spending so much money keeping it rolling. Bob |
Originally Posted by 90GTK450
(Post 561211)
Bob I have a 6 speed with a broken housing let me know if you need some parts.
I might be interested in that. I need to get a spare first and I got to save up some cash flow first. I got another 5 speed I can throw in if I have to for a couple weeks if it goes Kaboom. Bob |
Originally Posted by Splitime
(Post 561097)
You guys need to stop this thread.... especially as i just tossed a 6spd in a week or so ago.
Then again... I don't plan on power enough to break a 5spd.... so i better be safe :p
Originally Posted by bbundy
(Post 562784)
Dang it, driving a Miata this fast is expensive. I can’t afford some of the upgrades I want if I keep spending so much money keeping it rolling.
Bob Video of said blown 6-speed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4nD0-FNiH0 I guess ill yank it out this week and see what kind of damage happened. To be fair to the transmission, I do not treat is nicely, lots and lots of fast/hard shifts. I can say i never really did a stand still burn out or clutch popping on it though. |
Mike blew one up at TWS this weekend.
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Doing what? Hardparking in the paddock? Making 900whp Mile passes? Please don't tell us, I thrive on suspense.
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Originally Posted by jacob300zx
(Post 562858)
Mike blew one up at TWS this weekend.
How much power is Mike putting down? Metal clutch? |
what happened to the shot peened gears on all 6 speed 01+ trannies theory?
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Originally Posted by frostyllama
(Post 563344)
what happened to the shot peened gears on all 6 speed 01+ trannies theory?
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Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 562860)
Doing what? Hardparking in the paddock? Making 900whp Mile passes? Please don't tell us, I thrive on suspense.
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Dang
It seems to me that the 6 speed has a much better stiffer case than the 5 but the teeth are still a bit small for high torque with track driving. I changed my fluid and I saw no big chunks but I could definitely see that there is some seemingly heavy wear going on. Quite a bit of metal dust stuck to the drain plug for such a short time it has been in the car. I wonder if a Mazdaspeed version with the supposedly treated gears would lessen that. Interesting that it let go on a downshift, every 5 speed I have broken has been between 4000 and 5500 rpm at full load. Car is making ~330 ft-lbs across that rpm range. Bob |
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 562860)
Doing what? Hardparking in the paddock? Making 900whp Mile passes? Please don't tell us, I thrive on suspense.
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TSB- You sure were putting some interesting loads on that transmission....
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needs more:
http://www.schimmelperformance.com/m.../LDSCN0036.jpg I had those gears in my VW. Anyone breaking these at 250whp? Those fuckers are loud though...I mean LOUD. |
Has anyone put an rx8 transmission into a miata before? I wonder what kind of power those can hold up too..
Originally Posted by Doppelgänger
(Post 565628)
TSB- You sure were putting some interesting loads on that transmission....
Originally Posted by hustler
(Post 565658)
needs more:
http://www.schimmelperformance.com/m.../LDSCN0036.jpg I had those gears in my VW. Anyone breaking these at 250whp? Those fuckers are loud though...I mean LOUD. |
What are the TII transmissions rated to? Someone really should come up with a bolt on swap for those or atleast something close to it.
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1 Attachment(s)
So all i would have to do is swap the bellhousings?
http://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php?...6&postcount=23 Full thread here: http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.ph...76#post6374476 Gear ratio's dont seem to be too far off, i mean, i am not competing so i dont really need the "best" gear ratios. I just wanna drive the damm thing. Miata 6-spd 99 3.760 2.269 1.645 1.257 1.000 3.909 3.295 195/50-15 913 300 Miata 6-spd 05 3.760 2.269 1.645 1.257 1.000 4.100 3.456 205/45-16 910 3145 RX-8 6-spd 03-08 3.760 2.269 1.645 1.187 1.000 4.444 3.747 225/45-18 802 3005 Source: http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/tranchrt.txt Special thanks to Jason for passing this info along to me. Attachment 198037 |
Originally Posted by thesnowboarder
(Post 565797)
How so? I don't see myself doing anything out of the ordinary when i drive. In fact i think i probably treat my transmission better than savington or emilio. In terms of speed of shifting (they both shift extremely fast, much faster than myself) But hey, it could have been a bad transmisson, seen a hard prefious life..who knows. Just my opinion. |
What about the FD RX-7 6-spd from JDM land?
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I should just sell it all and go v8
Originally Posted by Doppelgänger
(Post 565820)
Watching the video, you get that wheel spin exiting corners, and it's not even wheels spin...you know the kind that casuses drifting. Spinning a tire under WOT and it suddenly gripping was probably pretty hard on the trans. I had similar issues when attending FM's track day and running V710s...it was unsettling when the inside wheel would spin and quickly grab traction as the weight came back on the inside. I could see/feel my shifter lurch when this would happen. A good diff that would prevent that would probably help reduce these shock loads. After the first couple of times it happened, I started lifting on the throttle to keep the wheels spin/shock to a minimum. I have only had this problem on the V710s and didn't have this problem when running some Hankook Z211s.....those just started a nice managable slide...which is probably easier on the transmission since the transition from wheelspin to grip is far smoother.
But hey, it could have been a bad transmisson, seen a hard prefious life..who knows. Just my opinion.
Originally Posted by Doppelgänger
(Post 565822)
What about the FD RX-7 6-spd from JDM land?
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Originally Posted by wayne_curr
(Post 565805)
What are the TII transmissions rated to? Someone really should come up with a bolt on swap for those or atleast something close to it.
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Nick, how much do you flatshift the car? When I stripped it I removed the clutch switches and disabled the flatshift since I felt it was too hard on the transmission. I know you used it last year at MRLS a little bit.
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Originally Posted by bbundy
(Post 565515)
Dang
It seems to me that the 6 speed has a much better stiffer case than the 5 but the teeth are still a bit small for high torque with track driving. I changed my fluid and I saw no big chunks but I could definitely see that there is some seemingly heavy wear going on. Quite a bit of metal dust stuck to the drain plug for such a short time it has been in the car. I wonder if a Mazdaspeed version with the supposedly treated gears would lessen that. Interesting that it let go on a downshift, every 5 speed I have broken has been between 4000 and 5500 rpm at full load. Car is making ~330 ft-lbs across that rpm range. Bob A lot of the SM guys use it in their transmissions too and most of them told me it seemed to significantly extend the life of the transmission, compared to Redline MT90 or Swepco. |
maybe that rx8 idea aint so hot. jason saini doesn't think much of the 04-08. i was hoping: if rx8's were same gerabox equals more crashed cars to pull from equals cheaper.
oh well, so if 06+ miata is the new hotness, ok, but whoa $7500? even for motor+6sp+driveshaft+diff, thats crazy http://orangecounty.craigslist.org/pts/1701588950.html i recently saw a built 430whp sr20det w/ 3071 + hardened gearbox for same money. something's not right ref: http://www.rx8club.com/showpost.php?...2&postcount=16 1. Venerable Miata (and 1st gen RX7) 5-speed. This box is nearly bullet proof, even in forced induction applications. Has been upgraded throughout the years, including helical reverse and dual-cone 2nd gear synchro in '94. Curiously, in '99, the retaining rings that keep the gears from 'overthrowing' were removed from the shift rods. PPF mounts from the passenger side. 2. MX-5 (2006+) 5-speed. This is a new version of the same venerable 5-speed box - exactly the same internals, and intermediate case, with a new bellhousing and tail shaft. This trans adds dual-cone synchros for 3rd and 1st, I think... it's been a while since I've been in one. This is the box that's so highly regarded by MX-5'ers, but it caused us nothing but problems when we tried to race them in the MX-5 Cup. The cases were twisting, and 3rd or 4th would regularly shear off. There was heavy evidence of the case twist. I don't think any of this would be a problem in a street application. PPF mounts from the driver's side. 3. Aisin 6-speed for '99-'05 Miata/Miata Turbo. Generally regarded as bulletproof, not raced as widespread as the RX-8 - but raced enough to know it's a good box. As noted above, has a better 4th gear ratio than in the RX-8. PPF mounts from the passenger side. 4. Aisin 6-speed for '04-'08 RX-8. Generally good reputation for street use, but very fragile for racing use. Big problems with 3rd/4th being overthrown and losing their shift-keys detent balls. Very poor metal quality for both steel and aluminum parts. Quick wear on shift hub slider teeth and matching gear teeth - causing grinding. Doesn't last very long in race use. We've made some upgraded parts that make them last better (one recently finished the NASA 25hr race,) but still a compromised design. At best, our fixes only extend the inevitable demise. PPF mounts on the driver's side. 5. '06+ MX-5 (and '09+ RX-8) 6-speed. Single case, or toploader design (much stiffer structure than the mult-part caes on the other designs.) Very large gears, much bigger than the other gearboxes. Dual cone synchros on all but 5th, 6th and Reverse. The weakest link on this gearbox is the 3/4 shift fork. It's weak metal, and breaks quite easily. We have made a billet replacement for racing use, and I hope that the new RX-8 box has an upgraded part. We've passed on everything we learn to Mazda, they are acutely aware of this issue. There is an adjustment for 3/4th shift throw, and this being mal-adjusted is the cause of most complaints from street users - the dealers can't do anything about it, because it's not in the shop manual... we've worked with Mazda, and it should be added. There are also three plastic bushings that break when the trans gets to racing temperatures. Finally, the 3/4 shift hub is prone to cracking under racing use. The gears are very durable, and the teeth on the hubs/gears stay sharp even after two seasons of racing. MOST of this gearbox is bulletproof, and Mazda is aware of the weak links... I'm sure they have integrated some of these fixes into the RX-8 version of the gearbox, knowing the weight/hp increase that it will need to hold. I can only assume that they delayed putting it into the RX-8 until they learned as much as possible about it. I would confidently say this is the best gearbox of the bunch. PPF is mounted on the [i]driver's[i] side of the case. Sharp readers will note that on both the 5-speed and the Aisin box, in the Miata application the gearbox is trouble-free, and the RX-8 and MX-5 applications of those same boxes, they don't hold up as well. REALLY sharp readers will notice that the PPF mounts on opposite sides in each case... making me believe that's too much of a coincidence. I think the side it's mounted on makes all the difference in how the tranny will last. Overall, I'd be happy they went to this box... it should be much better than the current one, especially for street and autox/occasional track use. As soon as we get one here to play with (hopefully very soon,) I'll let you guys know if the improvements made it in there, and how it holds up for us on the track. |
Originally Posted by minime
(Post 565921)
Bob, what kind of fluid are you using? Redline HD shockproof has a good reputation for keeping gears from shredding and I use it in my quaife trans. The gear whine from the gears went from a SCREAMING BANSHEE to a muffled whine, so it definitely works. I drained it when I pulled it off the old track car(MiniMe) and the particles were showing signs of degredation so it was time for fresh fluid(only 7k mostly street miles on it fwiw). Cold shifting is definitely notchy, but warmed up it is not noticeably different from the MT90 I had in there previously.
A lot of the SM guys use it in their transmissions too and most of them told me it seemed to significantly extend the life of the transmission, compared to Redline MT90 or Swepco. Bob |
1. Venerable Miata (and 1st gen RX7) 5-speed. This box is nearly bullet proof, even in forced induction applications. |
Why type of clutch is everyone running?
Bob, When you say metal I assume you saw iron/ferrous metal and not brass, right? If you guys are using GL5 you're eating those synchros which probably means nothing for structural gear failure. |
Michael is using a FM level II clutch
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Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 565912)
Nick, how much do you flatshift the car? When I stripped it I removed the clutch switches and disabled the flatshift since I felt it was too hard on the transmission. I know you used it last year at MRLS a little bit.
FWIW i have an ACT HD w/ 6 puck sprung clutch. MT90 in the tranny with less than 4k miles on it (the fluid, aprox 70k on the tranny itself). |
ive heard this before, the msm and 01+ trans are the same, they advertise the cryo/shotpeened gears on the msm as a selling feature, if you knew a sport had em, less reason for you to buy a msm, i guess.
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They upgraded the halfshafts for the MSM, though. I wouldn't be surprised if they shotpeened only the MSM boxes.
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4k for fluid on a trans that sees track duty? That seems like a bit long.
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Originally Posted by djp0623
(Post 560790)
.........and I've got a crap load of used six speed internal parts that I'll sell for cheeeaaaaaap to get them out of my garage. The areas of concern are in the group of parts I have.
Sav: Under what conditions was snowboarders six speed when he broke it???
Originally Posted by 90GTK450
(Post 561211)
Bob I have a 6 speed with a broken housing let me know if you need some parts.
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Originally Posted by Splitime
(Post 570742)
4k for fluid on a trans that sees track duty? That seems like a bit long.
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Originally Posted by swimming108
(Post 570746)
sounds like there are a bunch of people with extra parts. Anyone happen to have a 99-00 shifter for a 6speed? The one with 2 slots?
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Where is everyone getting there 6-speeds from?
It seems whenever i need one, i can't find one. |
Originally Posted by thesnowboarder
(Post 574847)
Where is everyone getting there 6-speeds from?
It seems whenever i need one, i can't find one. cl mystery 6spd ('99) for 800, but that may not be an upgrade |
Originally Posted by thesnowboarder
(Post 574847)
Where is everyone getting there 6-speeds from?
It seems whenever i need one, i can't find one. fwiw, quaife gearset (5spd) for $1876 http://www.autotech.com/quaife/news.htm |
Originally Posted by jasonb
(Post 574870)
random crap generator just produced:
fwiw, quaife gearset (5spd) for $1876 http://www.autotech.com/quaife/news.htm |
Quck question for you guys that might know. I'm going to build a 1.8 to drop in my 91 but the syncro in 3rd in my 1.6 is iffy. Can I put a 6 speed in my 1.6 without modification and then put it on the 1.8 when I'm done with the build? Or will it require some modification to go on the 1.6 that will inable me to put on the 1.8 when I'm ready?
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short answer: yes
a 5-speed from a '94 will bolt right into a '90, and a 6-speed from an '04 will bolt right into a '94. By that logic, a 6-speed from an '04 will bolt right into a '90. You will use your 1.6 driveshaft, and speed sensor assembly. You will cut the wiring connectors from one of your 5-speed tranny sensors and solder them onto the associated 6-speed tranny sensor. (remove the single black plastic connector on the 6-speed to solder on the 2 bullet connectors from the 5-speed) The 2 white plastic connectors are unchanged from '90 - 2004. |
Originally Posted by fooger03
(Post 577975)
short answer: yes
a 5-speed from a '94 will bolt right into a '90, and a 6-speed from an '04 will bolt right into a '94. By that logic, a 6-speed from an '04 will bolt right into a '90. You will use your 1.6 driveshaft, and speed sensor assembly. You will cut the wiring connectors from one of your 5-speed tranny sensors and solder them onto the associated 6-speed tranny sensor. (remove the single black plastic connector on the 6-speed to solder on the 2 bullet connectors from the 5-speed) The 2 white plastic connectors are unchanged from '90 - 2004. |
Some claim that the MSM transmission was made stronger with shot-peened gears
There are no unique, identifying part numbers/diagrams/etc. that would act as proof that there are 2 seperate types of gears for the MSM vs. Non-MSM transmissions. A common thought is that all 6-speed gears are shot-peened, the MSM's just used it as a selling point. You could use wire crimps as the circuit is not a potentiometer; but rather, it is a simple open/closed circuit. Perfect continuity is not paramount in the application. For the love of god, don't use wire nuts. A solder joint will not short out if it gets wet, assuming you've properly insulated the wiring, which you would do anyways if you crimped it. After you have completed the wiring, regardless of crimp, solder, or nut, you will always insulate the wire. The best way is with heat shrink tubing, electrical taped at the ends. The most common way (and not necessarily a bad way) is simply to electrical tape both joints seperately, and then e-tape them together. With regard to your MSM rear end. You will require the MSM axles to finish the install, as the MSM rear end will not mate up with N/A axles. If you do not have the MSM axles, do not attempt to install the MSM rear end. Any NA/NB transmission will mate up with any NA/NB rear end, driveshafts must match the rear end (1.6 rear end uses a longer driveshaft) |
Originally Posted by fooger03
(Post 578172)
With regard to your MSM rear end. You will require the MSM axles to finish the install, as the MSM rear end will not mate up with N/A axles. If you do not have the MSM axles, do not attempt to install the MSM rear end. Any NA/NB transmission will mate up with any NA/NB rear end, driveshafts must match the rear end (1.6 rear end uses a longer driveshaft)
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you're planning to use regular '94+ axles with the MSM rear end?
if so, re-read my previous post, again and agin, until it makes sense |
Originally Posted by fooger03
(Post 578210)
you're planning to use regular '94+ axles with the MSM rear end?
if so, re-read my previous post, again and agin, until it makes sense |
Originally Posted by spd579
(Post 578491)
Driveshaft from any 1.8 will work with the MSM rear.
Go back a third time, and re-read my post again and again...until you understand, without question...I'll even quote it for you so you dont have to waste time scrolling up:
Originally Posted by fooger03
(Post 578172)
Some claim that the MSM transmission was made stronger with shot-peened gears
There are no unique, identifying part numbers/diagrams/etc. that would act as proof that there are 2 seperate types of gears for the MSM vs. Non-MSM transmissions. A common thought is that all 6-speed gears are shot-peened, the MSM's just used it as a selling point. You could use wire crimps as the circuit is not a potentiometer; but rather, it is a simple open/closed circuit. Perfect continuity is not paramount in the application. For the love of god, don't use wire nuts. A solder joint will not short out if it gets wet, assuming you've properly insulated the wiring, which you would do anyways if you crimped it. After you have completed the wiring, regardless of crimp, solder, or nut, you will always insulate the wire. The best way is with heat shrink tubing, electrical taped at the ends. The most common way (and not necessarily a bad way) is simply to electrical tape both joints seperately, and then e-tape them together. With regard to your MSM rear end. You will require the MSM axles to finish the install, as the MSM rear end will not mate up with N/A axles. If you do not have the MSM axles, do not attempt to install the MSM rear end. Any NA/NB transmission will mate up with any NA/NB rear end, driveshafts must match the rear end (1.6 rear end uses a longer driveshaft) Here's a cheat sheet. The driveshaft will work. The axles will not. |
I'm sorry, I see where you got confused on my initial post.....
Originally Posted by spd579
(Post 578203)
Thanks, I have the axles from a MSM and drive shaft from a 94+ (not exactly sure what year but I've read any will work) I just need a carrier casing and it's impossible to find for a reasonable price. Anyone have a spare?:x:
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