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-   -   Why is everyone running 6ul and not deeper wheels? (https://www.miataturbo.net/suspension-brakes-drivetrain-49/why-everyone-running-6ul-not-deeper-wheels-38519/)

miataspeed2005 08-26-2009 07:56 AM

Why is everyone running 6ul and not deeper wheels?
 
Now this might be a stupid question or it might be a great discusion. Today I woke up in one of those thinking days and I asked my self "self why does everyone run 6ULs and not a widder deeper wheel?" like a 15x10 with fender flares. Isn't widder and lower better for track? Am I missing something?
Over the years I've been in this forum I've seen treands. Like everyone ran greddy kits with emanage, now ms with Garrett turbos. Then: starion IC now: eBay IC..etc etc.

magnamx-5 08-26-2009 08:37 AM

well for one most of us are to lazy to pull the fenders out and for 2 most of us are satisfied with the size we have it realy is alot of tire for the weight, on our lil miatas.

Faeflora 08-26-2009 08:44 AM

Because we're all clones without a soul.

I bought them because as magma said, I didn't want to pull or flare and they were cheap and lightweight. I'm not too happy about the finish- it pitted and my brake dust ate it away but they are very functional. I probably could've taken better care of the wheels.

neogenesis2004 08-26-2009 08:47 AM

Show me an affordable, light weight, attractive 15x10" wheel. Then show me an affordable, daily driveable 245 tire to put on it.

Also there is a point at which too much grip will reduce your laptimes. I think emilio has posted time differences based on tire sizes in the m.net huge 6ul thread before.

Stein 08-26-2009 09:15 AM

There are lots of people that aren't willing to do what it takes to even fit 15x9 6ULs, so even less would be willing to hack to fit 15x10's. I know I debated the 15x9's and with an NB I wouldn't have had to do much, but in the end went with the 15x8 and 225's. Still happy with the decision.

miataspeed2005 08-26-2009 09:30 AM

I'm mostly talking about track tho. DD a 15x10 wheel would be pointless but for the track sluts that are in the 300 whp?

hustler 08-26-2009 10:11 AM


Originally Posted by miataspeed2005 (Post 446756)
I'm mostly talking about track tho. DD a 15x10 wheel would be pointless but for the track sluts that are in the 300 whp?

I have only run 205's on the track because I'm burning up old rubber...but there weren't gross-acceleration traction issues. It will probably be just right with the 9's.

Doppelgänger 08-26-2009 10:11 AM

You do know that deep dish :ne: performance..right? I can tell you really need to read up on the relationship between width and offset.
Have you ever looked at the price of 15x10 wheels? Have you ever looked at the price of a 275-43/15 Hoosier A6 which also happens to be the only 15" tires that are even in production that are wider than 225 and fit on a Miata?

I tell you what, I run 215-40/17 Kumho V710..yes..17" wheels on a Miata on the track/AutoX. Even with that "narrow" tire, I am getting more grip than the Torsen can handle...and that says a lot. At the local autoX (very competetive.. nearly 200cars/event) I am swapping 1st place finishes in SSM with a monster 'Vette..running 315-40/17 Hoosier A6s...what does that tell you?
Also super wide tires on lightweight cars have several down sides..longer tire warm up times and much more aerodynamic drag to name a couple.

I think a 235/245 width is all a Miata needs...even with 350rwhp. I am excluding the 275-35 from this because there isn't even any competition for it...and the lower speed stuff, like autoX the A6 is specifically designed for. My points are really directed toward track discussion. Yeah.. I would love to see a 235-35-16 tire..or even more compounds for 245-35/16.

Splitime 08-26-2009 10:14 AM

I personally run 15x8 sportmax for street and track because they are CHEAP and reasonably wide.

They also are to me, the best compromise on tire size/price and wheel size/price.

I spent under 1k for an entire NEW wheel set and R-compound set in 225. I'd spend 1.5-2k EASY if I went for a wider tire in R compounds and a wider wheel.

That being said... If i could pull of wider and also keep it reasonably cheap... I'd do it in a second. GRIP rules.

sixshooter 08-26-2009 11:12 AM

Run the widest tire and wheel you need, but no wider. The additional rotating mass beyond what you absolutely need will definately hurt both your acceleration and braking. There is an old racer's rule that eliminating excess rotating mass at a wheel is roughly four times as important as mass in the chassis. This is because you are applying two forces to a wheel and tire. You are carrying its mass forward, just like the rest of the car, and then you are accelerating its rotating mass around a pivot. This additional effort also applies to braking.

The additional mass of larger wheels and tires also taxes the ability of the suspension dampers to keep the contact patch in contact with the road surface, and should be compensated for. (never end a sentence with a preposition) This change in unsprung weight will translate to suspension composure over rougher/less even track surfaces/transitions.

Wider tires don't generate a larger contact patch. That is a function of an interaction between corner weight and tire pressure. You can achieve a larger contact patch by reducing tire pressure, but only until tire deformation begins to diminish your returns.

Example: 500lbs corner weight and 50psi tire pressure equals 10 square inch contact patch. 500lbs. corner weight and 25psi equals 20 square inches of contact patch. 20 square inches is better than 10, but only if your tire doesn't deform enough under lateral loads to offset your gains and cost you traction.

A wider tire will give you a differently shaped contact patch at the same pressure, not a larger one. The trick is to find that optimization point and not exceed it into the land of diminishing returns. Use as much tire and wheel as you need and no more.
Does that make sense or am I explaining it poorly?

miataspeed2005 08-26-2009 11:19 AM

Alright maybe 10" wide wheels with 275 tires might be a little too much but how about 15x9 or 16x9 and 0-10 offset? Something that will make the car 8-10" wider. A car that is wide its better than a car that is more narrow. I personally run the xxr 16x8 0 offset for the street and if thing go the way they are going with work I will make it a track car by next summer. I'm def not going to keep my xxr as they are too heavy but I love how the car has a wider stance and it makes it handle way better.

miataspeed2005 08-26-2009 11:23 AM

My concern was more about offset then with I shoulda explain my self a little better

kotomile 08-26-2009 12:39 PM

I could see some advantage with wider offset at a tight autox where transitional response was very important, but for an actual track I would hypothesize it would create much more drag (what with the tires outside of the fenders and all) and wouldn't have much of an advantage at all.

Plus, the wider the car, the "narrower" the track. Imagine yourself back at the autox scenario, would you rather try to get through the slalom with a 6' wide car or a 6'5" wide one?

Savington 08-26-2009 01:07 PM


Originally Posted by miataspeed2005 (Post 446815)
A car that is wide its better than a car that is more narrow.

Wrong. Narrower cars will corner better than wider cars every time, with all other things equal.

The reason we don't run 15x10s is because 1. nobody makes a good cheap set (sportmaxes are not good) and 2. because nobody makes a good cheap tire that fits a 15x10.

There is a reason why most of the serious fast track cars in the country (Matt Andrews, myself, VagaXT, Emilio, bellwilliam, bbundy, etc) all run 15x9 6ULs with 225/45-15 Nitto NT-01s. 225/45-15 is the widest stock diameter size (except for the 275 Hoosiers, but they are $900 a set), so we all run the Nittos, and we use a wheel that's optimal for the size - 15x9.

Full_Tilt_Boogie 08-26-2009 01:19 PM

You guys could be really cool like me and have 195's on a 15x8 with 0 offset
:facepalm:

miataspeed2005 08-26-2009 10:58 PM

Wrong? Then why do proffesional drivers have wider cars?

Midtenn 08-26-2009 11:38 PM


Originally Posted by miataspeed2005 (Post 447153)
Wrong? Then why do proffesional drivers have wider cars?

That really doesn't make any sense. There is also the fact that many of the "professional" cars have the ability to design their own suspension to work with the wheel and tire combination.

Stein 08-27-2009 12:02 AM


Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie (Post 446871)
You guys could be really cool like me and have 195's on a 15x8 with 0 offset
:facepalm:

Reminds me, what happened to the guy with the "stretched tires, stretched anus" T Shirt sig? I love that shirt. Haven't seen him for a while.

sixshooter 08-27-2009 08:43 AM


Originally Posted by Stein (Post 447180)
Reminds me, what happened to the guy with the "stretched tires, stretched anus" T Shirt sig? I love that shirt. Haven't seen him for a while.

That was Newbsauce. I haven't seen him either.

LowBoostn 09-03-2009 12:33 PM

I see a lot of lowriders out here run 0 offset with there wire wheels. i also see them in the parts store buying the outer wheel bearings. lol The big change in offset changes the way the wheel bearings are loaded. The wheels on any car have a max and min offset that there designed for.

Savington 09-03-2009 02:57 PM


Originally Posted by miataspeed2005 (Post 447153)
Wrong? Then why do proffesional drivers have wider cars?

Google "scrub radius" and read for an hour, and then come back and apologize.

Cspence 10-17-2009 08:19 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Did'nt wanna dig this thread back up, but figured it'd be better to post here than start a new thread for a simple question...I'm love 6ul's, but what wheels are these (Seen them many-a-time, just don't recall the brand/model):

Attachment 203163

18psi 10-17-2009 08:49 PM

Panasport.
Sportmaxx also makes replicas

hustler 10-17-2009 08:51 PM


Originally Posted by Cspence (Post 469823)
Did'nt wanna dig this thread back up, but figured it'd be better to post here than start a new thread for a simple question...I'm love 6ul's, but what wheels are these (Seen them many-a-time, just don't recall the brand/model):

http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/o...g?t=1255825111

cheap ricer shit. And if they're not cheap, then they're expensive ricer shit.

magnamx-5 10-17-2009 09:09 PM


Originally Posted by Cspence (Post 469823)
Did'nt wanna dig this thread back up, but figured it'd be better to post here than start a new thread for a simple question...I'm love 6ul's, but what wheels are these (Seen them many-a-time, just don't recall the brand/model):

http://i389.photobucket.com/albums/o...g?t=1255825111

the answer is those are like 15 lbs at the laest so they are vastly overweight ricer shit.

18psi 10-17-2009 09:09 PM

In that offset sure, but in the proper offset I don't think they're all that ricey.

UrbanSoot 10-17-2009 09:15 PM

konig rewinds also look like that and they come in 15x8 with something around +30ish offset

miataspeed2005 10-17-2009 09:58 PM

Those are the same wheel I have and I don't give a shit how many ppl in here call them ricer wheels I still love them.

albumleaf 10-17-2009 10:17 PM


Originally Posted by Savington (Post 450095)
Google "scrub radius" and read for an hour, and then come back and apologize.

.

Cspence 10-18-2009 01:54 AM

Damn so many wheels that look similar...I kinda like the way these look on the car :nuts: and I was / am anti rice, well maybe not so much since I drive a miata :laugh:...I know the 6ul is most definitly a superior wheel from a track aspect, but I dont plan on really ever tracking my car or driving it compeditivly so these may be an option for me in the future...think I like the rotas

Rota RB:
http://www.rimstyle.com/data/product...go/large/1.jpg

Fastforward Drag:
http://www.jlbmotorsports.com/rims/f...cs/FF-GOLD.jpg

Konig Rewind:
http://www.technotoytuning.com/Rewinds/goldrewind1.jpg

Panasports:
http://homepage3.nifty.com/japanese_...panasports.jpg

Sportmaxx 513:
http://www.wheelmax.com/_images/prod...X-513-HL_z.gif

Watanabe:
http://www.skylinesaustralia.com/for...watanabe15.jpg

pdexta 10-18-2009 12:52 PM

I've got some wheels that look like that I'll sell you....














http://www.miata.net/faq/images/91alloy.jpg

:laugh:

triple88a 10-18-2009 01:56 PM

Id go with Panasports or Rota RB. The rest look like they are too overdone on the lip.

cueball1 10-18-2009 03:58 PM

The Panasport and the Rota are the closest and most faithful to the original Minilite design. The others are taking the classic Minilite look and making a rice casserole out of it.

Cspence 10-18-2009 08:04 PM

If I go this route it will definilty be with the rota rb's...just dont know which offset I would go with. They have +4, +20, +25, +35....the ones on this car are +20:

http://i.ebayimg.com/05/!Bc)Rvkg!2k~...wcZfQ~~_12.JPG

levnubhin 10-18-2009 08:53 PM

I vote +20
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ZX-Tex 10-18-2009 09:35 PM


Originally Posted by Cspence (Post 469902)
but I dont plan on really ever tracking my car or driving it compeditivly so these may be an option for me in the future...

Well in that case you should get whatever you like. Fuck what everybody else thinks. It is your ride.

Cspence 10-18-2009 09:45 PM


Originally Posted by ZX-Tex (Post 470178)
Well in that case you should get whatever you like. Fuck what everybody else thinks. It is your ride.

Right on! I like the way you think....

hustler 10-18-2009 10:09 PM


Originally Posted by ZX-Tex (Post 470178)
Well in that case you should get whatever you like. Fuck what everybody else thinks. It is your ride.

I've seen 2-miatas on Konigs that cracked and either wouldn't hold air or went out of balance at the track. I don't trust my life with those.

I've also seen an HRE wheel die on a porsche in grandiose fashion.

Cspence 10-18-2009 10:32 PM

1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by hustler (Post 470187)
I've seen 2-miatas on Konigs that cracked and either wouldn't hold air or went out of balance at the track. I don't trust my life with those.

I've also seen an HRE wheel die on a porsche in grandiose fashion.

Good thing I dont want the konigs...:hustler:

On a serious note though, any known issues with the rotas or unhappy campers? I know they weigh more than they should...

Attachment 203155

hustler 10-18-2009 11:05 PM

I know a few people who track rota "spoon knock offs" with no problems.

flier129 10-19-2009 01:51 PM

If you don't care about price or weight theres Keizer,Diamond Racing,CCW,Kodiak, and I'm probly missing a few others.

Toddzilla 10-22-2009 01:54 PM

As far as 225/45/15 street tire go, what options are out there now aside from RS3s?

I'm looking at going with a 225/45 on my 15x7 rota GT3s.

cueball1 10-22-2009 03:27 PM


Originally Posted by Toddzilla (Post 471884)
As far as 225/45/17 street tire go, what options are out there now aside from RS3s?

I'm looking at going with a 225/45 on my 15x7 rota GT3s.

Not too many guys out there running 17" tires on their 15" rims. You are a pioneer!

sixshooter 10-22-2009 03:35 PM


Originally Posted by cueball1 (Post 471947)
Not too many guys out there running 17" tires on their 15" rims. You are a pioneer!

:laugh::bowrofl::laugh::bowrofl:

Air gap...for a smooth ride...

mgeoffriau 10-22-2009 03:44 PM

The wheelspin is a bitch though.

Toddzilla 10-22-2009 04:25 PM

Whoops, typo.

Thanks for the helpful replies though. :fawk:

cueball1 10-22-2009 04:53 PM

Typo but good for a laugh or two. Thanks!

You are also very welcome sir! Anything to help a brother out. My other helpful response would be, search much? This took all of 15 seconds...

225/45/15 - Google Product Search

Lot more variety out there in 225/50.

225/50/15 - Google Product Search


Caught me in a pissy mood. Gotta screw with some newbs today...

Savington 10-22-2009 05:00 PM


Originally Posted by Toddzilla (Post 471884)
As far as 225/45/15 street tire go, what options are out there now aside from RS3s?

I'm looking at going with a 225/45 on my 15x7 rota GT3s.

Street tires:
RS3
Toyo R1R
aaand thats it (I think)

Race tires:
RA-1
NT-01s
A6/R6

Toddzilla 10-22-2009 05:37 PM


Originally Posted by cueball1 (Post 472005)
Typo but good for a laugh or two. Thanks!

You are also very welcome sir! Anything to help a brother out. My other helpful response would be, search much? This took all of 15 seconds...

225/45/15 - Google Product Search

Lot more variety out there in 225/50.

225/50/15 - Google Product Search

Caught me in a pissy mood. Gotta screw with some newbs today...


Did I know it was a stupid question I could have easily searched for?

Yes I do.

I will be 100% honest, I had to think of something to post because I want to buy some stuff and I want to be able to post ads for the stuff I want to buy, I saw this thread, and thought it was semi-relevant.

However, I don't fault you as I know it was something that was pretty easily found via searching.

I guess I could have posted a "hey guys, I'm new" thread in general discussion for that.

Toddzilla 10-22-2009 05:42 PM


Originally Posted by Savington (Post 472007)
Street tires:
RS3
Toyo R1R
aaand thats it (I think)

Race tires:
RA-1
NT-01s
A6/R6


Looks like RS3s it is. They are more expensvie than the RS2s I have on my M3.

Gotpsi? 10-26-2009 11:54 PM


Originally Posted by Savington (Post 472007)
Street tires:
RS3
Toyo R1R
aaand thats it (I think)

Race tires:
RA-1
NT-01s
A6/R6

I do also believe the R888's are available in our size

Savington 10-27-2009 12:05 AM


Originally Posted by Gotpsi? (Post 474197)
I do also believe the R888's are available in our size

yeah but they suck so I didn't even mention them. :brain:

Gotpsi? 10-27-2009 12:39 AM

Haha, Ive never run them so I wouldn't know, Not to thred jack but you never PMed me back about the torsen.

Faeflora 10-27-2009 12:45 AM


Originally Posted by adriver1990 (Post 474093)
I would love to run wider tires but once we start talking about fender pulling we get into serious dollars. Yet the wider stance is so choice for u big hp guys, SOMEDAY mmm :(

Fuck off and die.

TrickerZ 10-27-2009 11:13 AM

I have the rota rb in gunmetal 15x7 and I think 35 offset with no center cap. They look nice and I haven't had any problems with them. They wouldn't have been my first choice, but they came with the car.

OZMX-5 10-27-2009 09:33 PM

Guys, please research "bump steer" and "scrub radius"
Whilst a wider track and larger contact patch is better, there is a limit.

18psi 10-27-2009 09:40 PM


Originally Posted by Savington (Post 450095)
Google "scrub radius" and read for an hour, and then come back and apologize.


Originally Posted by OZMX-5 (Post 474620)
Guys, please research "bump steer" and "scrub radius"
Whilst a wider track and larger contact patch is better, there is a limit.

http://www.motleycrow.com/ImageHost/o-rly.jpg


You could try reading the thread.

gaan 10-28-2009 04:34 PM

c'mon Sav...I think you need to give the R888's another chance. lol

rt


Originally Posted by Savington (Post 474204)
yeah but they suck so I didn't even mention them. :brain:


emilio700 10-30-2009 02:29 AM


Originally Posted by gaan (Post 475016)
c'mon Sav...I think you need to give the R888's another chance. lol

rt

Perhaps he can, but they will still suck.

Savington 10-30-2009 05:17 AM

R888s are perfect for SM, where the sanctioning bodies require all the cars to run the same crappy suspension and same crappy tires. Those of us with a choice know better. ;)


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