|
Originally Posted by Scaxx
(Post 1490973)
I agree with Ian on this one, while George kinda muddied the waters a little with his bumpstop issue, it takes very little effort to give a quick, "heads up if you're running these two parts together" and it could have saved George's shocks in this case.
Again, it's not any vendors sole responsibility to issue warnings for every conceivable incompatibility, particularly with a non OEM dimension racing part intended for racing. We're adding a note to the ELBJ page that's something like: Check FUCA clearance to shock if you run the ELBJ on NB2 arms. Summit Racing has maybe 100,000 non OEM dimension parts that may be incompatible with other parts of the car, and have no warning or instructions to that effect. Think about that for a moment. This is never the sole responsibility of any race car parts vendor. |
Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1490976)
This is never the sole responsibility of any race car parts vendor.
What I'm saying is that you recommend using the parts together, you know of a potential catastrophic failure resulting from doing so, and you chose not to mention it to your customers. I don't understand the reasoning for failing to go to a trivial amount of effort to prevent your customers from making a very expensive mistake that you could easily forsee. --Ian |
Originally Posted by codrus
(Post 1490977)
I'm not saying it is.
What I'm saying is that you recommend using the parts together, you know of a potential catastrophic failure resulting from doing so, and you chose not to mention it to your customers. I don't understand the reasoning for failing to go to a trivial amount of effort to prevent your customers from making a very expensive mistake that you could easily forsee. --Ian Goodwin posted something in their forum about three years ago regarding Bilstein to NB2 FUCA interference. Few other posts on facebook here and there. It's unfortunate that George didn't know to check for that while he was checking brake line to tire clearance (no brake line or ABS wire brackets on Xidas), sway bar to shock body clearance nor inspecting the car after the first drive to make sure everything was happy. |
I actually did check. But all the common problem areas are not where I am having issues. Its usually sway bar contact or something more in view, not directly behind the shock and out of site. Not to mention I use a floor jack and jack stands, not a lift where you can easily spot these issues (which is how I found it, on a lift).
brake lines are easy, zip tie to FUCA, no need to look behind the shock for clearance. I didn't even have my miata in 2015. And nobody really frequents the goodwin forum. I also have never seen anything on facebook about it. Its just not something that I would have ever thought was possible. Also something that I would never have seen on my first drive around the block. Its a paved road, there is nothing to cause the shock to compress that far. |
Pic of your front camber eccentrics please
|
|
I have the same rubbing issue with my xida gs on an nb2 running poly bushings but an otherwise stock suspension and factory style alignment. Thankfully, I saw this thread, and i had only put on a few hundred miles so the damage is minimal.
While I agree that supermiata shouldn't be expected to be able to document every combination, it would have been helpful to have a (seemingly) previously known interference on a common chassis to be called out as a heads up on the website (similar to wheel and tire fitments on Goodwin's site). |
Emilio, were you aware of the issue before this post?
|
Not to fan the flames, but Mazda recommends you use Mazda parts. Once you stop doing that, to some extent you are on your own, and forums are no substitute for that (I mean, people like me can just post whatever they want! It's lunacy). The vendors are all trying to make this a safe and painless process so we buy more aftermarket parts, but they are human, too. Give poor Emilio a break :)
|
|
Xidas existed before ELBJs created this problem. The warning should be on ELBJs.
|
What about the cars without elbj's that have this problem? Maybe a warning on both, I dunno. I mean, it would take all of 5 minutes of effort either way
|
Originally Posted by cowlover556
(Post 1490991)
Emilio, were you aware of the issue before this post?
|
While I may not always agree with the directness of Emilio's posts, I think he is fully in the right. As a vendor you test, test, and test to get the best product out there. However there are often variations that are unknown or come up after production launch. The variation in the hundreds of thousands NA and NB's is too much for them to know everything. Even just coming off the line the cars have crazy variations. I have friends who work and Nissan and GM plants and tell me horror stories of what is allowed to leave the plant all the time.
I am a big fan of the work SuperMiata (almost put 949 Racing) does for all their products. While the release dates may slip, you can be rest assured when the product comes out it'll be durable and well supported. That being said, they have no way to know of issues outside their testing without customer feedback. I've been there. When Techno Toy Tuning started selling a panhard kit for the AE86, they sent it out with aluminum spacers (cheaper), but they crushed when you torqued down the bolt to factory specs. I found this out when they bound up the rod end and snapped. Luckily it was pulling into a packing lot because I was minutes from hitting up Deals Gap. So I did was George did, I posted on a popular forum warning people and contacted T3. After that, they started selling the kits with better spacers. If you find an issue, contact the vendor so they can aid in the investigation, do something about it, or make a note on their product listing. Emilio and crew have posted on their product sale pages about this issue, but end the end it is the end users responsibility to check fitment before and after initial use. If you don't like a product or company, find another company or design a better one yourself. Also, I assume its the same 4-5 people nega catting Emilio on this thread because everyone of his posts is -4 or -5. I just find it funny. |
The thing is... this was a known variation by the vendor. Unless told otherwise, i'm not tearing down coilovers developed specifically for my chassis by the experts that come assembled just in the name of checking clearance/for an issue that i've never heard about despite the vendor knowing about it in the context of a car that is essentially a cookie cutter build. Vendor is aware of potential issue? Vendor should put note in box to tell customers to disassemble their assembled coilover setup because it might not fit as is. Super simple stuff. Zero effort on vendor part, certainly less effort than shaming a kid on the internet for not knowing a thing that nobody told him.
This doesn't affect me, i have an NB1 master race car and super rare widetrack option. Either way, scenario is a shit sandwich. George could have done more. George should have heard/felt what was happening. E could have posted in a manner that didn't make it difficult to understand which person was the teenager and which one wasn't. Top marks for everyone. |
Originally Posted by cowlover556
(Post 1490991)
Emilio, were you aware of the issue before this post?
The car we have in our shop matches Georges set up. Xida Gen 2, ELBJ, eccentrics adjusted outward.. has about 1/2" clearance. We aren't able to replicate it unless we turn the eccentrics full positive camber. Thus why I asked for pics of Georges eccentrics, which he posted. Dan, Sonny and John had no reports or knowledge of an endemic issue. We genuinely don't know why his car has interference unless something is bent. So as I stated earlier, it's was not on our radar and still seems to only affect a narrow range of users with ELBJ and any shock. |
Originally Posted by doward
(Post 1490328)
NB2 arms have the extra brace, as noted above.
However, that alone is not normally an issue. By chance, do you also have ELBJs or offset bushings installed and are running less than -3* camber?
Originally Posted by doward
(Post 1490775)
Like I mentioned on the phone, the issue is a combination of
- NB2 UCA gusset takes away precious few mm of clearance. - ELBJs that add too much camber for your current usage/height/whatever, so you've: - Minimized camber with the cam bolts, which pulls the lower shock mount, and therefore shock body, inward towards the UCA gusset. The very few cases I've seen have been NB2 only. This does not seem to happen on 90-00 suspensions, but Mazda has superseded the early arms with the NB2 part number. We will only see more of this going forward. Adding back some camber with the LCA cam bolts will move the LCA and lower shock mount out away from the gusset, but may not give you enough clearance by itself. Grinding away part of that gusset will make some room, but may not give you enough clearance by itself.
Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1490976)
Nothing to do with the shocks. OEM Bilsteins will have the same issue. It's the Bauer ELBJ (that several vendors offer) combined with the eccentrics turned max positive camber and NB2 arms. Many already know this but not everyone. Like many know that OEM rear hub flanges time out, or OEM clutch slaves need to be replaced, or OEM rads are time bombs when they turn brown, or..
Again, it's not any vendors sole responsibility to issue warnings for every conceivable incompatibility, particularly with a non OEM dimension racing part intended for racing. We're adding a note to the ELBJ page that's something like: Check FUCA clearance to shock if you run the ELBJ on NB2 arms. Summit Racing has maybe 100,000 non OEM dimension parts that may be incompatible with other parts of the car, and have no warning or instructions to that effect. Think about that for a moment. This is never the sole responsibility of any race car parts vendor.
Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1491091)
Nope. Other than a few Exocet owners deleting the require Exomotive shock spacers and having multiple problems (broken ball joints/tires rubbing chassis, messed up handling/ FUCA-shock interference). Deleting the Exomotive shock spacers allows the F & R suspension to compress about 2" further than it does on a Miata which as you might imagine, creates all sorts of problems.
The car we have in our shop matches Georges set up. Xida Gen 2, ELBJ, eccentrics adjusted outward.. has about 1/2" clearance. We aren't able to replicate it unless we turn the eccentrics full positive camber. Thus why I asked for pics of Georges eccentrics, which he posted. Dan, Sonny and John had no reports or knowledge of an endemic issue. We genuinely don't know why his car has interference unless something is bent. So as I stated earlier, it's was not on our radar and still seems to only affect a narrow range of users with ELBJ and any shock. https://i.pinimg.com/originals/f3/c7...0ac7e9c679.gif |
Forum track record indicates otherwise
|
Originally Posted by concealer404
(Post 1491089)
George could have done more. George should have heard/felt what was happening.
|
Took a peek under the car this morning. 949 race alignment & ride height (3.5 degrees negative, might be 3.75 I don't remember), Xidas, ELBJs.
My car has NB1 arms. http://www.codrus.com/miata/xida/xidarub-0001.jpg Front alignment cam is in the center, rear is hard outboard: http://www.codrus.com/miata/xida/xidarub-0002.jpg Other side looks OK: http://www.codrus.com/miata/xida/xidarub-0003.jpg --Ian |
| All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:15 AM. |
© 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands