110 MPG Ford Mustang E85 Hybrid at Washington Auto Show
 

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On January 19, 2011, The Auto Channel received an e-mail from Douglas Pelmear president, founder and chief engineer of HP2g, an Ohio grass roots company that developed a 110 MPG E85 V8 Hybrid Mustang. He told us that “due to his inability to raise additional working capital he would have to abandon his good work.”

He couldn’t raise capital despite the fact that his Mustang actually gets 110MPG, and despite the fact that his vehicle uses 350x less gasoline than a Toyota Prius, and despite the fact that for the past 3 years he has been trying to get an OEM interested in his breakthrough technology, despite all of this he told me “he had to close his company”.

Well, quiet frankly, this really pissed us off and in response published an open letter to Energy Secretary Steven Chu (See Shame on you Steven Chu) that took him to task, for not supporting Pelmear’s American Solution for our gasoline addiction, while spending billions of dollars on fairy-tale EV development, a diversion from E85 the real drop-in replacement for gasoline.

Apparently others felt the same way as we did and after being on the NBC morning Show talking about the HP2g plant closing, he was invited to the Washington DC Auto Show.

Here is what Doug had to say: The HP2g car was driven to the show in the middle of the snow storm last Wednesday night. We, along with several other people, were caught 60 miles out of town stuck in traffic waiting on the plows to get through to clear the roads. This was no ordinary snow storm. There were layers of ice, slush and snow. As cars were forced off to the side of the road, people began to walk home.

Others were not so lucky. As we drove closer to DC, it looked as though a bomb had gone off. Cars, trucks, semis were tossed everywhere you looked. There were miles of traffic in front of us and behind us with all the exit ramps snowed in. Sitting in my car, I knew we had to do something. I grabbed our shovel out of the car, went car door to car door gathering people to help move a Semi that was stuck in the middle of the road in front of us. Together, we pushed the Semi to move down over to the road and drove on to the show.

HP2g is in the Washington, DC Auto Show Advance Technology Super Highway Hybrid section. It was left with the salt on the car to show it is a REAL car!

I want to Thank everyone who helped out on Highway 270 on January 26, 2011. Together, we pushed though the storm to arrive just in time to the show.

I am telling people to write their senators and congressman that banks are closing small business by not loaning the money and I am an example. (This is my Hail Mary pass to try to stay in the game.)

Hang in there Doug, maybe the good guys can win after-all.



More...

Has anyone actually documented the mileage it gets? Or are they just claims.

+1. Just looking at the car I'm certainly skeptical. A foxbody mustang isn't exactly light, even by modern standards, and it's got the aerodynamics of a brick. Not to mention the decrease in gas mileage you see with ethanol based fuels. I'm calling BS.

I think its some kinda ricer math... He's probably only counting the 15% gasoline in that figure and ignoring the 85% ethanol... So sure, it takes 110 miles to burn a gallon of gas, meanwhile he also burned 5.7 gallons of ethanol. (Works out to 16.5 mpg if you follow my reasoning) Lol

This thing has popped up every other year for the last decade. If it was that great, don't you think he would have found found funding by now?

Every gas station would be e85 only if this was legit.

Sounds cool. Reading his .pdf patent application, it seems like he's using magnets to attract & repel the piston along with cylinder deactivation.
http://www.hp2g.com/images/US20100288214A1.pdf

In there he says he can get 3-5lbs force from the magnets. Take 4lbs as an average, time 8 cylinders, times half the stroke (assume 3" stroke of the 302 even though he's running a 4.8...possibly stroked with a smaller bore?), you'll get 48ft-lbs torque...adequate to maintain highway speeds. Add cylinder deactivation for the high compression E85 engine ("400hp/500ftlbs") when you need it to recharge the electromagnet batteries...etc. Sounds possible I guess.

If it did work you'd think he'd do it to a metro or something. I do like his view of a rotary with the electromagnets. hehe.

You think "they" really want us getting that kind of MPG?

That would mean big oil would suffer a HUGE blow. So would the government. Think about it. If we revamped all our stations to a new type of fuel and everyone was consistently getting 100MPG on average, that would change the country entirely. I'm sure more than a few people will do anything they can to keep things the way the are.

I'm convinced that getting insane MPG is entirely possible but some in the government and in the oil industry constantly keep the technology 'swept under the rug' so-to-say...because they know it will cut into their profits too much. They enjoy the huge kick-backs, profits and control they have of the industry. Just watch "Who Killed The Electric Car?" and you'll see how much bullshit goes into this. I also believe that the whole 10% ethanol blend is just to put money in the pockets of the oil industry and corn farmers and that there is absolutely no interest for the good of the consumer or the enviornment in it, it's just about money and greed.

I truely hope this is true and he has created something amazing.
I do find it odd that this story reappears consistently...he should show up to the dragon's den. :idea:

I think this is absolutely, positively, complete and utter bullshit. Seriously.

1. Ethanol isn't NEARLY as efficient as gasoline at producing power.
2. Magnets? Really? Come on kids...
3. It's a V8 FOX BODY MUSTANG... that gets 110 mpg? Um...

Again, if this really was the super-duper unicorns-and-rainbows ultimate solution, we would all be driving it by now. I don't see any independent testing here. Anyone who thinks there's a Big Oil Conspiracy is mildly loony. Plus, I can't put any stock in that piece of crap called "Who Killed The Electric Car" - a completely biased waste of time that conveniently didn't address the real problems with EVs, namely charge times, real-world range, battery life, and what the fuck you do with the batteries once they expire. There were no hard facts or tests in that piece of shit, only glowing reviews from fucking Hollywood hippies.

There... I'm done ranting.

I think it would be awesome, but I do think that someone who is interested would find a way to black ball it. How would the electronic components inside the engine hold up too the extremely high heat (long term)? If you can make them do such, they would be expensive.

Making the Chevy volt is expensive.

If the technology isn't there, then how come there are many small Euro cars that are rated at over 80mpg on diesel, yet the best we get here is the Prius at a measley 50mpg using hybrid technology? Go look up Fiat, Renault, Pugeot and Volkswagon and their model lines in other countries. Hell, the VW Polo with one of the diesel engines is rated at 90mpg. Even the sedans like the Passat and the Peugeot 407 get over 40mpg on gasoline. Yes they are small cars, yes they are diesel....but still, they're available cars that get much better MPGs than anything in the US and without having to use heavy batteries. I don't think that 100mpg from a 4.xL V8 with 300+ hp would be possible, but small 4-cylinder engines in decently lightweight cars (2,000-2,800lbs) with good aerodynamics? Much easier to accomplish. And you really think that the oil companies give a shit about how much prices strain the economy or the enviornment? I guess they're best interest was adding ethanol to gasoline that decreases efficiency and makes us come back to the pump sooner....because that reduces cost and puts less pollution i nthe enviornment. How come the average citizen is displeased when fuel costs go up yet the big shots around Washington simply write it off and really don't have much to say other than "expect higher prices"? I know it's not the government's job to regulate the oil companes and tell them everything they can and can't do, but it is their job to keep the country from going belly-up from a tanked economy....and doubling the gost of gas is a great way to accomplish that....along with a no-drill policy that would help reduce the cost of fuel.

You do know that betters can be recycled? Ever think about the tens of thousands of electric forklifts/industrial equipment that are bettery powered, what happens to all of them?

I have to agree with this.
Closest thing we have to those cars is the Smart, which sucks ass at only 45mpg or something like that.

The fact that our government restricts certain diesels and smaller cars due to inconsistent and illogical emissions and crash standards is one thing -- the claim that there's a vast conspiracy that is suppressing already-developed technologies from being sold is another.

I wouldn't say I think it's some full-on conspiracy, but I do think it's very likely that it's out there and a possibility.

I just don't see it. If this guy's technology really worked (or if, say, electric cars were really viable alternatives), what's stopping him? Seriously, he's got a technology that produces a real-world, demonstrable 110 MPG passenger car, and he's abandoning it because he can't raise capital? There aren't hundreds if not thousands of investors who would be interested in being the industry pioneer on this?

EDIT:

Google finds that the proprietor has failed to file any relevant patent applications and will not allow 3rd party testing of his Mustang test mule.

http://theautoprophet.blogspot.com/2...vaporware.html

Im saying it is a conspiracy. You watch, now that hes got attention, the attention and he himself will vanish. Gov. and too many other folks make too much money off of things being the way they are to let something like this see mass production. Even is this guy is full of shit, it still doesnt change the fact that if tech like this is real, it will never see the light of day.

Well, trickyrix was accusing me of saying ist's some crazy off-the-wall conspiracy that the government would surpress technology that could cut deeply into the profits of the oil industry and that I'm mildy looney for thinking so. I'm saying I believe it's a possibility that such happenings exist because it's proven how greedy they are and that it's known that either entity doesn't always keep our best interest in mind.

damn right

So these energy companies would rather engage in a criminal conspiracy than be the first adopters of a new, massively efficient technology that would revolutionize the industry? Sorry, not buying it.

If this guy's "invention" is for real, there is zero chance that every single car manufacturer in the world is passing it up.

It's not criminal if they obtain the technology/patents/copyrights legally and simply never use them.

Then it's a matter of public record, but you guys are talking about people "disappearing."

Besides, patents expire.

I'm not.

For all of you saying there isnt a conspiracy, your most definitely wrong. There is 100% a conspiracy on this. If handfulls of rednecks can make electric cars in their garage for a few thousand, then the big name automakers could make one a billion times better and more efficient. I believe without a tiny bit of doubt that the oil companies and the government is holding this technology back.

Doppel, didn't mean to imply that you in particular were mildly loony, but I hear too many people rustling their tinfoil hats and lighting their torches when anyone dares to step back and ask "hey, you really think these asshats can pull the wool over everyone's eyes?"

Yes, I'm fully aware that Europeans are light years ahead of us when it comes to economical cars. Could it be that it's because fuel is double or triple what it costs here? Could it be that they have displacement taxes? Could it be that it's just plain expensive as shit to live over there?

If the price of fuel shot up to $7-8 by the end of the year and stayed there for a year, I bet you'd see a mad scramble to get that 90mpg VW Polo over here in short order. As gas creeps up, you're already starting to see more and more practical B-class cars, and even our big-ass trucks are kinda getting with the program.

The fact is, compared to the rest of the first world, our gas is fucking cheap. And our country is pretty big and desolate in some places. And outside of airplanes, our cars are the best option for getting places. Our country is just geared for cars where Europe is not - especially in most major cities. So, add all that up and you can pretty easily come to the conclusion that it's not Big Oil keeping us down, it's 99.5% of the people buying cars. A full-electric car like the Leaf will continue to be a small niche player unless the range and fueling infrastructure can magically be made to match that of your average gas-powered sedan.

But my main point was that the 110mpg Mustang is clearly, clearly pure bullshit. Plain and simple. It runs on the same mythology as copper bracelets on your wrists, magnets in your shoes, and a crystal for your aura.

the cake is a lie

And it will be not because of anything the buying public does, it will because it cost too damn much. $40k for an electric? Screw that. For that kind of money I can have a really nice BMW sedan, that out-performs 80% of the other crap on the road. For half that, I can get a nice big truck that gets shitty mileage, and dump 10 grand into gas for the next 5 years. For a quarter that ($5K), I can get a decent used car, put another 5 thou into the tank, and pocket 10 grand for my kid's education.

I'd gladly drive an electric for a daily. I looked into conversions, and the few offerings allowed in the US. They all suck, and are expensive to boot. Even doing all the work for a conversion costs 7-8 grand easy, and you have to have the vehicle, and be able to tear it all apart and rebuild it. Not many people can, and I don't want to put that kid of effort in so some green tree hugger can feel good about buying a korean shitbox.

The cake is a lie.

The numbers just don't add up.

Let's assume that a Prius gets 40 miles per gallon, and that its fuel intake is 100% undiluted gasoline. (This is less than the EPA rating, but we'll be pessimistic for the sake of trying to help the Mustang.)

And we'll assume that E85 contains only 15% gasoline, despite the fact that this number is often higher- E85 means "up to 85% ethanol".

To use 1/350 the gasoline of a Prius, you'd need to go 14,000 miles per gallon of gasoline. At 0.15 gal of gasoline per gal of E85, you'd have to achieve 2,100 miles per gallon of total fuel.

2,100 > 110.

I think I know why Douglas Pelmear can't raise any funding. It's because he failed elementary school.

Did not know this. How much can it vary?

I ask because I'm recalling the discussion about flex-fuel sensors and how they calculate octane. I'm curious how much the octane from one E85 station might vary from the octane from another E85 station.

This might help... LINK

Looks like most E85 only has about 80% max ethanol due to Winter E85 and handling/storage requirements.

trickyrix's link has all the info, but the short version is that fuel marked "E85" can be anywhere from 15% gasoline to just over 30% gasoline.

On the topic of octane, I'm certainly no expect here, but I have found a few good papers on the subject. Turns out that the difference may be less than we expect. Here is a link to a paper entitled "Changes in Gasoline" sponsored by the Renewable Fuels Foundation, which has one section about E85. It notes that:This suggests to me that the octane spread between actual E85 and lesser blends such as E70 may be much smaller than would otherwise be presupposed.

On the subject of the Mustang, it occurred to me that there's one way in which at least some of the author's claims might be "true", depending on how you squint and read the fine print.

The EPA rated highway fuel economy of a 1990 Ford Mustang with a 4.9L Windsor V8 and an automatic transmission is 23 MPG.

Now, estimates on this next point vary greatly, but in general, the energy density of E85 seems to be somewhere in the vicinity of 65-75% that of gasoline in terms of recoverable energy per unit volume. So the Mustang's highway mileage should drop to around 15-17 MPG running on E85, assuming all other factors to be equal and an optimal state of tune for E85.

Now, if E85 contains 15% gasoline, then you only need to achieve 16.5 miles per gallon of E85 to be doing 110 miles per gallon of gasoline. Funny how that falls quite neatly into the middle of the predicted range for an unmodified Mustang burning corn-squeezins'.


I'm pretty sure this guy is just a BS-artist who is seeking attention by making claims which, if properly interpreted, just barely pass the "not fraudulent" test by a wide enough margin to steer clear of a conviction, just like the folks who try to sell you "hydrogen generators" that produce a trivial amount of hydrogen by electrolysis of water. Yes, they generate hydrogen. No, they do not generate enough of it to contribute to more than a few thousandths of a percent of the engine's energy requirement.

I want to believe... but...

I figured it was like Coates, who it seems is more interested in luring investors than creating any real product.
Maybe this guy was trying to get someone to buy him out.
Can't be certain in these matters. Unless you know their motives, trust no-one. Gov't, corporations, individuals... [He says while donning tin-foil hat]

FWIW, my '89 coupe, 5.0/5 sp/3.08 gear, pulled 30mpg on a non-stop interstate tank-drainer at 75-80mph. Low speed and idling really kills it though. [Oh yeah, this one time, in band camp...]

Well, the thing clearly does not perform like it is said to, or else he would have gladly let someone else test the thing. That alone lets you know the guy is dishonest.

Well, yeah. No matter what your political leaning, you have to admit that if he actually did posses some technology which was capable of enhancing fuel economy by even a very small degree without sacrificing horsepower, every automaker in the world would be lined up at his door with cash and contracts in hand (or breaking into his house at night, or hiring hitmen to kill him, or fabricating evidence that he has sex with underage goats in order to discredit him, or whatever other conspiracy you want to imagine.) The point is that they would not be doing nothing, and that's precisely what the reaction seems to be.


No, if there were really something to this, he'd find a way to make it happen, rather than just crying "woe is me, shall not one company give me fabulous sums of money in exchange for these magic beans?"


I honestly think the guy is just an idiot, plain and simple. And I mean that in a literal sense: "a mentally deficient person, or someone who acts in a self-defeating or significantly counterproductive way." He claims to have invented a "variable displacement" system, which supposedly reduces fuel consumption by deactivating some of the cylinders while in cruise. Ok, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But if he's trying to sell this system, how can he not realize that anybody who might be in a position to make an investment in an automotive technology of this type would already be aware that GM (Cadillac) was doing this in the early 80s, and that GM, Chrysler, Merc and Honda are still playing with it? There are even several trademarked names for it, such as "Displacement on Demand" and "Variable Cylinder Management."

He's also the inventor of a "block girdle" for 302 V8's, which he claims reinforces the block against internal stresses such that it can handle upwards of 900 HP on an otherwise stock block.