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Speculation and Discussion Thread about V8Roadsters LFX Swap
THREAD SPLIT FROM ELSEWHERE AND CONTINUED HERE
And V8Roadsters.com is about to release a new kit using the all aluminum 323hp VVT V6 and 6-speed from the latest Camaro. Much better design and lighter engine than the 55 year old 5.0 engine design. |
WUT!?!! I have to see that.
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Originally Posted by Monk
(Post 1151213)
WUT!?!! I have to see that.
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Originally Posted by Sshantz
(Post 1151246)
Oh man that sounds incredible...i wonder how difficult it's going to be to source those parts though as they're still relatively new.
EDIT: I just found two complete LFX engines at $1k apiece in junkyards. |
Flippin awesome. The 3.6 came in lots of different vehicles, so sourcing one would be pretty easy. Dry weight is supposedly 370#, and the LFX is around 350#. That isn't a whole lot heavier than a BP. I am very curious about what they come up with.
Any idea if they are using a 1.8 diff? |
That's very interesting. I felt it was a shame that what seems like a pretty good V6 was wrapped in a 3800lbs Camaro. I bet it would be a blast when you put it in something 1500lbs lighter.
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VVT enables it to have a 7400rpm redline, which is great for our cars.
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Just doing some light searching, I've found a bunch of these things for relatively cheap. The LFX came in the Caddy CTS and the Caprice as well as the Camaro. Earlier versions came in some Suzuki vehicles as well. The LFX is also set up to run off E85...
Yeah, this could be awesome. Sorry for the thread drift OP, many of us suffer from intense ADHD. |
Originally Posted by Monk
(Post 1151260)
Sorry for the thread drift OP, many of us suffer from intense ADHD.
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Yeah. Fuggit Six, you might as well turn this into a LFX swap speculation thread.
You're right Nuge, the AISIN seems to suck with teeth. Shitty 1-2 shifts, terrible vibration, etc. Here are the gear ratios: *1st 4.48 *2nd 2.58 *3rd 1.63 *4th 1.19 *5th 1.00 *6th 0.75 Reverse 3.67 There has to be something else that will bolt on there or at least a stronger version because they put them in so many different vehicles. |
Oh I was thinking about bolting it behind a built BP, but unfortunately it appears to be nearly as heavy as a T56 and not nearly as strong.
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It would have been great if they could have stuck with the getrag 260 they used with the 3.2. Strong and very cheap.
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Oh very intersting. Subscribed (for when I have more money)!
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Thanks Sixshooter.
Speaking of the Getrag, the 265 had a removable bellhousing, and I know there are small block chevy versions floating around out there. Probably none for the 3.6, but some industrious individual could make it happen. It weighs about 80#. |
Wow, finally a polished swap that I theoretically can get registered here (and with much cheaper engine/trans).
The Cadillac CTS 2.8 have low enough numbers (157KW) to be accepted and I assume it's only the headers that will be different from the LFX fitment wise. The 1st in the AY6 would be ludicrous with Miata sized wheels, even using a 3.636. Hmm, the even turbo 2.8 with the lower numbers could be accepted (in a NB at least), but fitting it is another story (I hope SAAB did not alter the bolt pattern as they always changed GM stuff). Once there is a GM V6 in there, no inspector will notice which version. |
I'm waiting for more info. Integrated headers make a huge difference for fitment. There must be different trans options, people hate the Camaro but love the ATS/CTS.
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If you really want to get crazy, the integrated exhaust manifold's outlet looks quite similar to a turbo flange :party:
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But the engine isn't paired with a manual trans in the ATS or CTS.
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Been watching this for a while. Very interested. Being able to re-use the Torsen and Miata axles is a nice plus cost-wise. The engines will be common as dirt too. The M6 less so.
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Yep. In the end its all about the transmission and wiring as much as anything else. There's a long list of engines better than the BP, but making them work in this chassis is a bitch. LSXs are great, but you have to replace the whole driveline, and that's where the $ or time get big.
The K swap is maybe sorta pricey but its still cheaper than a LSX because you can reliably use a 6 speed or maybe a 5 speed and stock diff stuff. And the ratios will work well. Hence its appeal to people despite the naysayers. But something with an easily utilized factory ECU making 300WHP that's got an affordable driveline solution to match and keeps weight about the same might be Goldilocks for a lot of people. If the trans does not suck and is available and if the kit does not cost an arm and a leg and if its well thought out (which it probably will be). Edit: Reading up on AY6 transmissions from LFX vehicles, they are fairly closely related to AZ6 transmission, which might sound just a tad familiar to this crowd. The AY6 is broadly similar, but focused more on strength than snappy shift feel, hence its ability to handle about 100 lb/ft more TQ. Its maddening to try and keep all this incestuous transmission tomfoolery clear. The Toyota people basically refer to the AY6s as RA60s. They get into Tacomas and other random stuff with a traditional FR layout. Basically all these Aisins are the village bicycle of the transmission world. http://kaizenfactor.wordpress.com/20...e-know-so-far/ |
Originally Posted by thenuge26
(Post 1151358)
If you really want to get crazy, the integrated exhaust manifold's outlet looks quite similar to a turbo flange :party:
http://i59.tinypic.com/fn8jgx.jpg |
Originally Posted by turbofan
(Post 1151362)
But the engine isn't paired with a manual trans in the ATS or CTS.
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I have been hoping for some time that some one would stuff one of the these newer V6's with direct injection into a miata. GM, Ford, Hyundai, Nissan, whatever. I love that they are lighter and cheaper than V8 but yet more torque and power than most 4's. I'm very glad someone is coming to market with a bolt in kit!
Now I really wish I didn't blow my shit up and spend 3k on rebuilding! Damn! Maybe forged bottom end BP for sale? I'm also very curious to see what power can be had using D.I. Or other possibilities? Has anyone started spraying fuel during exhaust stroke to keep turbos spooled? I fuggin love the potencial of D.I. and hugely variable cams on both intake and exhaust! |
I have been following the LFX swap for a while. The mounting kit can actually be purchased now but there is still a lot of information that needs to get released before I am sure I want to head down the path.
Some of the info I have found:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...24582154_o.jpg https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.n...35948336_n.jpg |
Shandelle indicated the trannies were available new from GM in a crate because he quoted a "new" price from GM to me. I just don't recall exactly what it was.
I'm sure all will be revealed in good time. This is just a speculation thread. The Caddy version called the LF3 comes as a twin turbo 420hp. LF3 The 3.6 L twin-turbocharged version for the 2014 Cadillac CTS and 2014 Cadillac XTS has been announced at the 2013 NYAS.[16] The engine is rated at 420 hp (313 kW) of power @ 5750 rpm and 430 lb·ft (583 N·m) of torque @ 3500-4500 rpm (with 90% of torque being available at 2500-5500 rpm) and helps the CTS achieve 0-60 mph time of 4.6 seconds with an 8-speed automatic transmission. In essence, the twin-turbo 3.6L V6 is the force-inducted variant of the popular LFX V6 currently found in the Cadillac ATS, XTS, and SRX, among many other GM models, with several important upgrades, including: All-new cylinder block casting All-new cylinder head castings Strengthened connecting rods Forged steel crankshaft Continuously variable valve timing Large 38.3 mm intake valves and 30.6 mm sodium-filled exhaust valves Machined, domed aluminum pistons with top steel ring carrier for greater strength 10.2:1 compression ratio Patented, integrated charge air cooler system with low-volume air ducts Two turbochargers produce more than 12 pounds of boost (80 kPa) Vacuum-actuated wastegates with electronic control valves All-new direct injection fuel system Tuned air inlet and outlet resonators, aluminum cam covers and other features that contribute to exceptional quietness and smoothness. Applications: Year(s) Model Power Torque Dyno Chart 2014–present Cadillac XTS 410 hp (306 kW) @ 5750 rpm 369 lb·ft (500 N·m) @ 3500-4500 rpm link 2014–present Cadillac CTS 420 hp (313 kW) @ 5750 rpm 430 lb·ft (583 N·m) @ 3500-4500 rpm link V12 |
Originally Posted by sixshooter
(Post 1151518)
Shandelle indicated the trannies were available new from GM in a crate because he quoted a "new" price from GM to me. I just don't recall exactly what it was.
I'm sure all will be revealed in good time. This is just a speculation thread. The Caddy version called the LF3 comes as a twin turbo 420hp. MORE Speculating on total cost to do with all new parts: Crate Engine: $4400 ECU/Harness: $1000 Transmission: $3000 Clutch/flywheel: $500 Mounting Kit: $1800 Custom Exhaust: $800 Cooling: $800 Diff mount PPF Elimination kit: $400 Driveshaft: $300 Gauges adaptation: $500 Fuel delivery: $300 DBW Gas peddle: $200 Lots of guesses there but that adds up to $14k. Probably can save 6k going with junkyard parts for the first 4 items on the list, but figure at-least a grand in unexpected costs. A safe budget for a junkyard build is probably $10k. I guess I need to save more. Now the LF3 would be crazy. It isn't available as a crate motor at this time but maybe some day. I'm guessing you would need to go with their full rear end conversion kit as well at those levels. |
Not a speculation about the kit but rater a very special case of finding parts that might fit my purpose. Thinking out loud and storing my thoughts is a good place.
Purpose; Get a swap made using a 2.8+AY6+Getrag diff to meet the requirement for registration as "modified Vehicle" here. Max 150Kw/ton in that case so LFX might be a later change under the radar. 1. Transmission, the AY6 would suit my purpose nicely, and the TR6060 seems to be even more expensive than the T56 (used). In which cars are the AY6 most common in the US (cheapest dumpster find)? Yes, I can read Wikipedia... Would all GM AY6 have the same bolt pattern and starter location? 2. Engine, the 2.8 LP1 was only available in the CTS 05-07 according to Wiki, but it does not seem to be that common. one found on ebay for $1k (with a note "FWD", huh). Is the 2.8 with external headers much bigger than the LFX (who knows, why touch a small engine)? 3. Diff+axles, I need to get something not-miata to qualify for "modified". V8R Getrag is apparently pulled from CTS, so one more part from the same car. Getting axles made should not be difficult locally. It would be wonderful if engine, gearbox and diff could be sourced from the same CTS here in Europe. There are some 2.8 with manuals available for about 5k euros (counting shipping and taxes and it's 1:1 €:$ from my perspective). Would the ECU for the 2.8 play nice (have it been cracked)? But who knows what's in a Euro CTS? Hmm, who would want a CTS without engine/trans/diff/axles? :) But this is something different than crate LFX + crate TR6060 and using the miata diff. Carry on. |
Car-part.com
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Originally Posted by sixshooter
(Post 1151616)
Car-part.com
Now back to keeping the current project alive. |
The 2.8 is the same block, so dimensions should be the same.
Would the PPF need to be eliminated. Is there any reason it couldn't just be bolted to a bracket on the cross-member? |
Originally Posted by Monk
(Post 1151629)
Would the PPF need to be eliminated. Is there any reason it couldn't just be bolted to a bracket on the cross-member?
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http://i60.tinypic.com/2hd9s42.jpg
http://i61.tinypic.com/fjkbgo.jpg I agree somewhat, but it seems like the biggest hinders ce is the rear subframe. |
Jumping in to bump this...
The car was at Laguna, and here's a couple of quotes from a thread on M.net: V8 Roadsters had their very first V6 NB running around Laguna Seca at the 25th Anniversary Miata meet yesterday. It looked very well finished, as expected. Tons of ground clearance and tons of room in front of the engine as well. Word is that with the six speed that comes with that engine (2012 Camaro) there are no need for transmission tunnel modifications. Did about 15 laps around Laguna with Steve. Very pleasantly surprised with torque and power. 7200 rev limit and pulls hard all the way. Chassis was set up for street and had 360 tread wear tires but it drove around most everything on the straights. It's going to be an awesome alternative to LS and the next step is to try to get smog legality in Ca. |
Any photos? Probably saw it. Silver with black stripes?
I'm gonna laugh if it's silver with black stripes because I blew it away on the straights :giggle: |
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Nope not the car I was thinking of. Not sure which class he was running in, Just an X on the window? Instructor?
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Wheels are too big but the engine fits like a glove.
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The engine fits like a glove in an NB but is it going to clear the hood in an NA?
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I see they filled it with dexcool. :( Getting an engine with zero trace of dexcool in it might make the new crate engine option worth it. Also notice that its using the GM coolant expansion tank that has the rad cap on it and a radiator with no rad cap. Will that be included in the kit? I mean you could always just put a very high rated cap on the radiator or add a bunch of shims to the spring to jack the rate up.
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This transplant is what is delaying my engine build. If it's a 10k swap I can probably get 1/2 that selling all of my current turbo stuff. Factor in the $3k I'd spend building the new motor and it's only $2k more for the v6.
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Anything new here?
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Originally Posted by carnut169
(Post 1177217)
Anything new here?
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I looked up engine for this and I really think this would make my 01 just a bit more enjoyable. If the transmission it comes with sucks, then why not adapt a road racing version of a T5 or something?
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I found a brand new T5Z for $1960. I think I remember reading about their failed V8 Spec car series using T5's as well... I am sure it could fit.
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Anybody know how this kit locates the front of the Torsen? Is the PPF retained somehow?
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The Laguna Seca car had a Getrag rear end in it. I don't know of any examples that are trying to use any factory stuff.
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Hmmm. Do they have install instructions or a detailed build thread anywhere yet? I looked at their Facebook stuff, but it didn't have a lot of detail.
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He's been working on getting it carb legal for California. That's taking most of his time right now. I'm sure more will be posted eventually.
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What I want to know is just how similar the guts are in the various versions of the AY6 - each mfg has the latitude to change elements of the Aisin trans to suit their particular prefences.. the RA62 (which is an AY6) in the IS250 has a true close-ratio 6spd with ratios that would rock for track use. Little to no chance of the bellhousing bolting to an LFX but maybe swapping the gearset could be done...
However, I've done a fair bit of playing with the camaro's ratios combined with available getrag diff ratios and I think there is a good solution to making the camaro trans work well on road courses. It wouldn't work for a BP but for the LFX with 240+ ft-lbs from 2k rpm and up, should be a good fit... This trans would not work well with the miata diff ratios FYI -Ryan |
moving forward
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I've sold/ traded my turbo car for a NA roller and am actively searching the salvage auctions for a 12-15 Camaro V6 Manual for the conversion.
The NA will be built for track use- as light as reasonably possible and without anything not related to safety or making it go/ stop. I will start a build thread once more of the major components are in hand. I will buy the V8 subframe kit and hope to be able to fabricate most other bits. Wish me luck! Attachment 184504 Attachment 184505 |
AWESOME. Nice roller. Looks like it already has some nice pieces on it. Pre-sub'd to your build thread.
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Nice. Looks like a very clean NA. Looking forward to your progress as you may be the first to put the LFX in an NA.
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Is there still no word on what transmission, PPF solution, and rear-end this kit will use?
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Uses Camaro 6sp transmission, kit appears (from pics on V8R's site) to have a trans crossmember similar to the V8 swap kit, so no PPF. That being the case it will require something to locate the stock diff, or a Ford or Getrag diff. The ratios for the Miata diffs are less than ideal for the gearing in the Camaro trans, so the Getrag makes a lot of sense.
Does anyone know of a running LFX swap at this point, other than the prototype car? |
Ordered the LFX mounting kit tonight...
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Congrats! You may be the 1st NA with one...
Please put up a build thread! |
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Harness is underway(ish), lsd differential is inbound, pedal ordered. Trying to get more comfortable with the electronics portion of this install which will be the most challenging aspect
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Oh, 2012 camaro motor and trans with 40k cost $2500. Diff was $350.
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Originally Posted by carnut169
(Post 1199801)
Oh, 2012 camaro motor and trans with 40k cost $2500.
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