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Originally Posted by 1999NB
(Post 1184816)
For a track car, what's the approximate hp break where the extra inertia and rotating mass of the 10" wheel with wider tire makes sense? Compare 9" UL with 225 RC1 vs 10" UL and 245. Consider a track like Buttonwillow or Laguna seca on a 2000# car.
For autocross, always the widest you can fit. For track, 225's are faster on slow, tight tracks. Needs about 140whp to be faster on all tracks. 245's want 170whp-ish before they are significantly faster than 225's. Get into the 200's and the 245's are much faster. So it's clear, inertia from tire wheel mass are never a measurable factor. It's drag from tire scrub only when cornering that makes the difference. Ever notice have even at WOT, a stock engined Miata has a hard time gaining speed in fast sweepers? |
Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1184857)
Ever notice have even at WOT, a stock engined Miata has a hard time gaining speed in fast sweepers?
BTW, I'm not seeing the 245s over on the website yet. |
They are listed out of order at the bottom of the drop down list of sizes. Just ordered mine, can't wait. Looks like there is going to be some rubbing on the inner fender wells or sway bar on the turn in tire if you turn to sharp because my 9 " wheels with 225's almost rub.
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Yep the 245 is now for sale. I have ordered a set as well for my ST2 LS1 Miata. I need more wheels.
And FWIW I have large flares so don't plan on using me as a fitment check data point. |
Guess I didn't look hard enough. Just ordered a set of 225s, about right for my 140rwhp car.
John, I was bummed by what happened to your car at MSR-C. Hope to see it out again soon. |
Thanks, no worries it is already on the mend. I just need to do some rewiring and it will be back to normal.
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Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1184857)
Miata specific:
For autocross, always the widest you can fit. For track, 225's are faster on slow, tight tracks. Needs about 140whp to be faster on all tracks. 245's want 170whp-ish before they are significantly faster than 225's. Get into the 200's and the 245's are much faster. So it's clear, inertia from tire wheel mass are never a measurable factor. It's drag from tire scrub only when cornering that makes the difference. Ever notice have even at WOT, a stock engined Miata has a hard time gaining speed in fast sweepers?
Originally Posted by jmann
(Post 1184882)
They are listed out of order at the bottom of the drop down list of sizes. Just ordered mine, can't wait. Looks like there is going to be some rubbing on the inner fender wells or sway bar on the turn in tire if you turn to sharp because my 9 " wheels with 225's almost rub.
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex
(Post 1184939)
Yep the 245 is now for sale. I have ordered a set as well for my ST2 LS1 Miata. I need more wheels.
And FWIW I have large flares so don't plan on using me as a fitment check data point. |
Strange question, but so are all of mine in one way or another;
225 RC1 vs 205 NT01 (or other decent non-purple Rcomps) on 9" on tighter tracks with about 170whp? |
Just placed an order for some 245's, I cant wait!
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Originally Posted by NiklasFalk
(Post 1185691)
Strange question, but so are all of mine in one way or another;
225 RC1 vs 205 NT01 (or other decent non-purple Rcomps) on 9" on tighter tracks with about 170whp? |
Traded in my 225/45R15 BFG Rivals for 225/45R15 RC-1s. This is my first experience with an R-Comp tire. Me likey! Super easy to drive and I went 2.6 seconds per lap quicker on the MSR-Cresson 1.7CW. For perspective, my laptime was significantly faster than the other Miatas in the Advanced run group and about the same as the guys in Z06s and 911GT3s.
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Following the Thunderhill 25 hours this weekend. About 3hrs to go and an E46 BMW is leading E1 on Maxxis RC-1's.
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LOL. After all the bad-mouthing that BMW guys in particular have lobbed at the RC-1. That would really be funny. I'd be curious how often they had to change tires vs. the other makes.
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Guys, gave my perceptions of the RC1 to Jeffbucc. I think what I'm feeling with the tire is in large part related to sidewall stiffness. Would appreciate a correction if I'm all wet here.
Originally Posted by hornetball
(Post 1188254)
Originally Posted by Jeffbucc
(Post 1187806)
Rick mind highlighting the RC1 difference in regards to your Rivals? I flat-spotted mine somehow I decided to order some RC1s since the price point was pretty damn close to what I paid for Rivals.
How cold was the track, how'd they hold the heat, how'd they do cold, tire pressure etc etc. You don't have to answer all those, but just getting a good datum point before next weekends autocross. What I found was pretty well summed up by Andy Hollis here: https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/ar...re-track-days/ The only part that was different for me was Andy's comment about the tire being "edgier." I found the opposite vis-a-vis the Rival. I thought it was easier to drive/rotate. When pushed too far on the wrong side of the slip-angle/grip curve, it was easier to recover. The tread compound used on the Maxxis seems really similar to that used on the Rival and RS-3. Seems to generate the same to a bit more peak grip (in the neighborhood of 1.2 to 1.3Gs on Honey Badger). The usable grip peak also seems to cover a broad range of slip angles, making for a forgiving tire. Not "peaky." The difference from the EP street tires is that the sidewalls are much stiffer. That gives the following benefits: 1. The grip gets generated at a lower "perceived" slip angle. The slip angle at the tire contact patch is likely similar, but the lack of sidewall flex means that the slip angle being perceived by the driver is less. Maybe this is what Andy meant by "edgier." 2. Perceived slip angle vs. grip is extremely linear on both sides of the curve. Again, the minimized sidewall flex makes things more direct for the driver. I really liked it. R-comps are often not recommended for new drivers because of the "peakiness" of the compounds, which makes learning how to drive at the edge and rotate the car a more difficult task. But the compound here isn't like that -- I think it's a great learning tire. The compound is also durable. The flip side, of course, is that it's not super-sticky like a Hoosier or top-level Toyo. Nonetheless, I was a lot faster on it compared to Rivals: 1995 Miata MSR-C 1.7CW (1_27.119) vs. 1995 Miata MSR-Cresson 1.7CW (1_29.734) by VJ 1995 Miata MSR-C 1.7CW Comparison (RC-1s vs. Rivals) | YouTube Doubler | Mashup Helper As for coming up to temperature, it seemed to generate grip from the start of a session at least as well as a Rival (50-60F air temperatures). Got about 7psi increase on most loaded tire during a session. Seems to like about 2psi more than the Rival for best times (I was using 36psi after experimenting for 7 heat cycles). TL;DR: Similar to a bit more grip than top EP street tires. Broad peak. More linear and easier to drive because of stiff sidewall. Durable. Great learning, practice and Enduro tire. |
"Similar to a bit more grip than top EP street tires" seems to be a very reserved comment considering a 2.6s improvement over the Rival.
-Ryan |
Originally Posted by ThePass
(Post 1188311)
"Similar to a bit more grip than top EP street tires" seems to be a very reserved comment considering a 2.6s improvement over the Rival.
-Ryan These modern crop of EHP's don;t stop nearly as well as even the hardest compound race tire, for example. In our testing, Rivals were within .1g of the same size RC-1, sometime matching steady state. It depends on the radius of the turn, pavement temps and a few other variables. |
Yeah.
It's tough for me to make a confident laptime comparison though. We're talking ragged out Rivals vs. almost-new RC1s. I'm getting faster as a driver too. So, it's hard for me to attribute the 2.6s to just tires. I'm kind of going off what Andy said in that regard. But I know what I felt. They felt much better, easier to drive. They rotate beautifully. Emilio, I noticed the difference in braking. I could use a lot more brake with the RC1s without lockup. I'm at a loss. Why is that? |
Originally Posted by hornetball
(Post 1188324)
Emilio, I noticed the difference in braking. I could use a lot more brake with the RC1s without lockup. I'm at a loss. Why is that?
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Hmmmm . . . . Back to stiffness again. I see a pattern.
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I've been thinking of upgrading to RC-1's from my rivals on this next round of tires. Anyone have any thoughts on street driving RC-1's to and from the track on socal fwy's? Thoughts on wear from street miles and or risk associated with the less puncture resistant carcass on the street?
I'm thinking I should be ok... on the other hand, it might be a stupid idea just for a few ticks of the stopwatch.. Prob time to build a tire trailer or just sack up and start trailering my car i guess. |
I street drive mine to MSR-C and haven't had any issues. But it's not that far, about 10 miles one-way. I also choose my roads to stay on nice surfaces.
I have a car trailer for going to other tracks. |
Originally Posted by EErockMiata
(Post 1188508)
I've been thinking of upgrading to RC-1's from my rivals on this next round of tires. Anyone have any thoughts on street driving RC-1's to and from the track on socal fwy's? Thoughts on wear from street miles and or risk associated with the less puncture resistant carcass on the street?
I'm thinking I should be ok... on the other hand, it might be a stupid idea just for a few ticks of the stopwatch.. Prob time to build a tire trailer or just sack up and start trailering my car i guess. |
Yeah I would vote tire trailer as well. I doubt the RC-1 will see any significant wear from the street miles - lots of guys drive their NT01s to/from after all - but nails/punctures would really ruin your day.
I have been back and forth on getting one myself for years. The expanded storage space beyond being able to carry the extra tires is also a huge bonus. Only problem I foresee is if one breaks down, the flat bed tow truck isn't going to be able to take you and your trailer. |
Originally Posted by hornetball
(Post 1188324)
Yeah.
It's tough for me to make a confident laptime comparison though. We're talking ragged out Rivals vs. almost-new RC1s. I'm getting faster as a driver too. So, it's hard for me to attribute the 2.6s to just tires. I'm kind of going off what Andy said in that regard. But I know what I felt. They felt much better, easier to drive. They rotate beautifully. Emilio, I noticed the difference in braking. I could use a lot more brake with the RC1s without lockup. I'm at a loss. Why is that? You may be feeling something similar...I am also getting quicker as a driver and noticed a similar change from my summers to NT-01s. |
Originally Posted by EErockMiata
(Post 1188508)
I've been thinking of upgrading to RC-1's from my rivals on this next round of tires. Anyone have any thoughts on street driving RC-1's to and from the track on socal fwy's? Thoughts on wear from street miles and or risk associated with the less puncture resistant carcass on the street?
I'm thinking I should be ok... on the other hand, it might be a stupid idea just for a few ticks of the stopwatch.. Prob time to build a tire trailer or just sack up and start trailering my car i guess. |
I daily drove my RC1s for about 3 months this summer between track days. Just don't be a jackass in the rain and you'll be fine.
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Originally Posted by EErockMiata
(Post 1188508)
I've been thinking of upgrading to RC-1's from my rivals on this next round of tires. Anyone have any thoughts on street driving RC-1's to and from the track on socal fwy's? Thoughts on wear from street miles and or risk associated with the less puncture resistant carcass on the street?
I'm thinking I should be ok... on the other hand, it might be a stupid idea just for a few ticks of the stopwatch.. Prob time to build a tire trailer or just sack up and start trailering my car i guess. The rain was on/off through lunch, and of course they are not a good rain tire based on the tread pattern (water excavation - what?). By 4pm, the track was dry EXCEPT for T3, which must be the low part in that section of the landscape because the water came straight across the normal apex in a 3' section and spread to 10 or 12' wide (Dear SCRAMP - sandbags please!) The RCs skated there hard, while the rest of the track was dry. Oh I would have killed for some Dunlop ZIIs or full-tread RA1s that day! I was there the following weekend and it was completely dry; we were 2.2s faster on them, meaning T3 killed ~2s. Bah! |
Originally Posted by ThePass
(Post 1188584)
Yeah I would vote tire trailer as well. I doubt the RC-1 will see any significant wear from the street miles - lots of guys drive their NT01s to/from after all - but nails/punctures would really ruin your day.
I have been back and forth on getting one myself for years. The expanded storage space beyond being able to carry the extra tires is also a huge bonus. Only problem I foresee is if one breaks down, the flat bed tow truck isn't going to be able to take you and your trailer. I speak from experience :) Edit: my only concern with driving on RC-1's to and from a track would be the heat cycles you're putting on the tire. For extremely short distances that's not a problem - PIR is about 10 miles from my house, all freeway, and I drove there directly on my RR's several times once they were past about half life. In that distance they don't get any real heat in them. But for longer drives, I'd want them on the tire trailer. When I drive directly on them to PIR I still take the tire trailer, because Big Toolbox, and because then I have Rivals or RS3's to switch to in case of weather/puncture/whatever. Tire trailer. |
Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1184857)
Miata specific:
For autocross, always the widest you can fit. For track, 225's are faster on slow, tight tracks. Needs about 140whp to be faster on all tracks. 245's want 170whp-ish before they are significantly faster than 225's. Get into the 200's and the 245's are much faster. |
Originally Posted by k1l4m
(Post 1190303)
So, would 245's on a 9" wheel be faster than 225's on a 9 inch wheel for autocross and 245's on a 10 inch wheel would be even faster? thanks
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I am significantly confused by some of your tyre codes for a decent reference against NT01's.
What is a Toyo RR in comparison to an NTO1? From reading this whole thread I cant figure if the RC1 is better or worse than the NT01..except that some of you say it would be a good alternative to a Hoosier so I "assume" significantly better than an NTO1. Is a 225 RC1 faster than a 225 NTO1 on a 9" rim? Roughly speaking, how much faster is an RC1 245 on a 10" rim than a 225 NT01 on a 9" rim? All this time I have been waiting for 9" 6uls to come back in stock when I find this thread and wonder if I shouldn't be looking at the 10" and the 245 RC1 or similar..(assuming a competent panel beater can perform a "Heavy Pull" - flares are frowned upon in our "Classic Japanese" class...) Also, do you guys get the Hankook Ventus z214 dot rated semi slick over there? |
Okay, internet research - so now I know what an RR is!
Questions above still remain :) |
Unless you have a race series that uses the RC1 as a spec tire, you should think of it as a practice/training tire that lasts a really long time. Speed-wise, the NT01 and RC1 are similar. The RC1 is supposed to last longer but I haven't seen any real data on that. In NASA TT, both the NT01 and RC1 are 7 point tires.
Peak lateral grip of the RC1 is similar to an RS-3 or Rival street tire. But the R-comp construction and slick tread makes it feel much better in transitions and braking. That feel yields confidence, and the confidence shaves seconds -- at least it did for me. So, inexpensive, long-lasting practice tire so you can save those $$ Hoosiers for when it counts. A market alternative to the NT01 -- take your pick. |
Thanks Hornetball. Great explanation.
Okay so in comparison, I think i'll stick with NT01's as they also provide a modicum of wet performance (if fresh), our weather is lot wetter than you guys tend to get. Right, so for outright performance the Toyo RR is better than an NT01 I presume? Have you guys heard of or get the Hankook Ventus? I am interested to know as some of my competitors (FWD Honda's mostly) are moving to it and I wonder if I need to stay with them or not...i.e. is it significantly faster than an NT01 and what is it's wear rate like? |
Here is how I see the whole speed/value thing. I can get 245 RC-1's for about the same price as 225 RR's. I expect them to be about as fast as 225 Toyo RR's but last twice as long. Pretty damn good value proposition IMHO. They will be faster than NT01's because Nitto does not make a 245.
I have run 245's on both 9's and 10's. I would not run the 245 on a 9" rim again unless it was an autocross event. At the limit in high speed corners the 10"s feel much more predictable. |
Thanks K24, appreciate it.
Turns out no MAXXIS RC1's are imported to the country. The Toyo RR is only available as a 205 and the Hankook is available at the same price as the Nitto. Shithouse living in a small country in the middle of nowhere sometimes!! |
We get a pretty big range of tires with the "Ventus" name. Are you asking about the Ventus TD?
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2 Attachment(s)
We know it as the Hankook Ventus Z214 down here...
see picture. |
Originally Posted by mx5-kiwi
(Post 1191383)
We know it as the Hankook Ventus Z214 down here...
see picture. Toyo RR would be a little slower I assume (comparing fastest times of each tire), but keep that speed for longer. Z221 (TD) or Yoko A050 are assumed to be really fast tires with thread patterns, but no decent Miata sizes (i.e. 225). |
correct me if i'm wrong but the speed chart goes in this order.
fastest to slowest Hoosier toyo rr - hankook z214 c71(soft) toyo ra1 - hankook z214 c51 (hard) toyo r888- maxxis rc1 - nitto nto1 hankook rs3- Bfg rival- toyo r1r feel free to change this.. i think this is accurate.. maybe |
Thanks for the input much appreciated.
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Originally Posted by OGRacing
(Post 1191454)
correct me if i'm wrong but the speed chart goes in this order.
fastest to slowest Hoosier toyo rr - hankook z214 c71(soft) toyo ra1 - hankook z214 c51 (hard) toyo r888- maxxis rc1 - nitto nto1 hankook rs3- Bfg rival- toyo r1r feel free to change this.. i think this is accurate.. maybe |
thanks.
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Originally Posted by OGRacing
(Post 1191454)
fastest
to slowest Hoosier toyo rr - hankook z214 c71(soft) toyo ra1 - hankook z214 c51 (hard) toyo r888- maxxis rc1 - nitto nto1 hankook rs3- Bfg rival- toyo r1r feel free to change this.. i think this is accurate.. maybe |
Emelio how do you think the 245 will do on a 9.5 wheel?
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Originally Posted by RHD_Tarzan
(Post 1192217)
Emelio how do you think the 245 will do on a 9.5 wheel?
It will probably work like somewhere between a 9 inch wheel and a 10 inch wheel. The tire works on both. It is just slightly better for lap times on a 10 inch wheel with a good driver. |
Originally Posted by sixshooter
(Post 1192222)
You spelled his name wrong.
It will probably work like somewhere between a 9 inch wheel and a 10 inch wheel. The tire works on both. It is just slightly better for lap times on a 10 inch wheel with a good driver. |
Originally Posted by 1999NB
(Post 1192588)
Do we know if the 245 rc1 on the 10" +25 fits the NB with track camber (3* front / 3.5* rear) without flares? I know they fit without much on the 9", but the 10" will make a bit more interference...hence why it's better/faster.
https://www.miataturbo.net/wheels-ti...3/#post1184755 |
I have never understood offsets very well. Can I assume a 10", with a +10 offset will not hit my sways and TSE brake ducts, if my 9" 6ULS don't?
Thanks E!! |
Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1192672)
No flares in this pic. Flat rolled fronts, rolled rears. No pull. Most folks assume our 15x10 was optimized for 275/35 Hoosiers. Our 10's were designed around the 245 RC-1 which was still two years away. Everything just fits.
https://www.miataturbo.net/wheels-ti...3/#post1184755 Did you end up liking 36psi HOT the most? I've read "34-38psi" target pressures.
Originally Posted by tomiboy
(Post 1192680)
I have never understood offsets very well. Can I assume a 10", with a +10 offset will not hit my sways and TSE brake ducts, if my 9" 6ULS don't?
Thanks E!! |
Originally Posted by 1999NB
(Post 1192685)
Excellent - then I'll have them mounted up on the 10" ULs for an event at Laguna this weekend with fresh RC1s. I see you stated this earlier in this thread as well; sorry for the repeat. :(
Did you end up liking 36psi HOT the most? I've read "34-38psi" target pressures. Your 9" 6ULs are a +36 offset; you're comparing them to a 10" +10 offset. The outer part of your 10 will sit 38mm more OUT (towards the fender) than the 9" 6UL (fender flare?). You asked about the inside though; you will have 14mm of additional INNER clearance with the 10" +10 vs the 9" +36. You've basically moved the centerline by 26mm, then added 12.5mm on each side due to the 1" larger wheel. |
Originally Posted by tomiboy
(Post 1192680)
I have never understood offsets very well. Can I assume a 10", with a +10 offset will not hit my sways and TSE brake ducts, if my 9" 6ULS don't?
Thanks E!!
Originally Posted by 1999NB
(Post 1192685)
Excellent - then I'll have them mounted up on the 10" ULs for an event at Laguna this weekend with fresh RC1s. I see you stated this earlier in this thread as well; sorry for the repeat. :(
Did you end up liking 36psi HOT the most? I've read "34-38psi" target pressures. |
I've been trying to find the answer to this question - are the RC-1's directional? If they are not, I can rotate them any old way, and get lots of life, and that's glorious. My two tracks pound the Left Front. Toyo RR's are directional, and must be rotated diagonally on a RWD car, which resulted in the LF/RR pair cording at the end of the season while the other pair still had a couple of events at least in them.
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RC-1's not directional and not subject to tread splice weakness like the RR, Rival et.al
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1 Attachment(s)
Aaaaah I can't wait!
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1420626883 Mounted pics soon hopefully |
Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1194302)
RC-1's not directional and not subject to tread splice weakness like the RR, Rival et.al
+1 on tread splices. Been pounding on mine, no visible splices whatsoever. I can usually get rivals to show splices in a session or two. |
Originally Posted by hornetball
(Post 1194321)
That said, the grooves are not symmetrical, so the tires do have an outside and an inside. Can't flip them on the rim.
+1 on tread splices. Been pounding on mine, no visible splices whatsoever. I can usually get rivals to show splices in a session or two. |
Originally Posted by Seefo
(Post 1194334)
I don't see why it matters which way you mount them. care to enlighten? Unless maybe you use one side of your tires more than the other...which will be camber dependent.
I wear the outside of my tires more than the inside regardless of camber. Obviously, aggressive camber helps to reduce the difference. I've got as much front camber as I can get on the car without going to offset bushings/adjustable length control arms/etc. |
If you wear the outside significantly faster than the inside, wouldn't you extend the life of the tire by flipping them inside-out? I've done this with my NT-01s (and RA-1s before that). I understand that it might not be optimal, but the tread will be semi-slick across the surface by then anyway.
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1 Attachment(s)
I decided to paint the letters on mine while I'm waiting for my RS3's to completely wear out. Probably going to do 2-3 more autocross events on the RS3's before I mount the 245's
Attachment 184499 |
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