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Old 04-06-2013, 10:41 PM   #1
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Default The Camber Tire

Hey guys i searched and didnt find anything, But either way i was at a local drift event today No Star Bash at (gateway).

Well i was there and ran into a guy filming a ls1 350z And it just so happen to be John Scott The owner and inventor of the Camber Tire. Very cool guy.

They Were just testing they're r2 tires for drifting. He was pretty happy With how it was going being that they did not design them for drifting.

Anyways if you have herd anything about them Its a pretty interesting idea. Google it and look it up and return.

Either Way He claims they will last about 3-4 times longer than a normal slick. And improve grip Through all the information he shared with me today. They are still in the testing and production. But i mentioned to him The limited tire options that us miata guys and honda guys have with the 15s.

He said that currently they are testing 1-4 degree tires and in 18s. But he said for me to check interest for a 205/50/15 225/45/15 And i also discussed About petitioning hankook for the 245.

He said that if there is enough interest he will have a few sets made and start testing. He gave me his personal Email and well i was Wondering what you guys thought. I currently do not have a track miata and i have a while until my lsx is done.

So, i am posting this to one see what you guys think. And two possibly set up an interest thread and maybe email john on making a few sets of 15s.


I will try to post more information as i get it but He said they are 140utg But last. The ls1 350z driver loved the tires but he said he was having to throw the car really hard and clutch kick to get them to slide at all. They were really sticky. Also john claimed they last longer than other marketed summer tires.

ill throw some pictures up and i think we need to discuss this. This is a vendor willing to look into making our sized specific But in this cambertire.

discuss. Also ill try to answer any questions through john by email.



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Old 04-07-2013, 03:19 PM   #2
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Seems like a cool idea, I would try them out.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:10 PM   #3
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It seems like the unequal heating and cooling would present some real issues.
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:46 PM   #4
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You think? Wouldnt you think it would equal out heat across the tire * if your mechanical camber is -3 and your running a 3 degree tire so that it is 0 camber at the contact?

I would assume that it would allow the tire to be more evenly heated and at bump travel allow less camber at full bump. Than Say, a car running 3 degrees camber that will natural camber more at bump.
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:18 AM   #5
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I am probably wrong but I thought the point of running negative camber was so when you are in a corner the forces of the car bring the camber as close to 0deg as possible hence why you run more camber with stickier tyres.

can someone explain to me the actual reason behind running camber because the idea of cambered tyres makes me think the above must be wrong.
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Old 04-08-2013, 01:13 PM   #6
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Hmm a lot to consider in this situation.

Scott said they were making faster lap times woth these over a normal r compound.

He also said if there was enough interest that he would make them in our sizes.

But as I have said. I understand the concept. But I myself have not raced and at that point is over my head.

Just trying to extend the invitation this guy made. And it seems like any help we can get in our limited tire options would help.
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Old 04-08-2013, 01:38 PM   #7
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I could see this maybe being OK for camber challenged cars in a class where they cant do camber mods, aka current scca stock class. But besides that it seems pretty stupid, if you want your car to have zero static camber and you're a ricer who's now too low to get to that then you need offset bushings/crash bolts/adjustable control arm/etc.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:45 PM   #8
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Old concept, been done.

Didn't catch on.

That should say enough.
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:17 PM   #9
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I'm still trying to grasp the underlying concept here. Maybe someone can elucidate for me.

Either:
1: The mechanical camber of the suspension is set to some negative camber X, and a tire with the same amount of positive camber is installed, thus resulting in a tire contact patch which is equivalent to a conventional tire at zero camber, or

2: The mechanical camber of the suspension is set to zero and a tire with some amount of negative camber X is installed, resulting in a tire contact patch which is equivalent to a conventional tire at X camber, or

3: I have totally missed the point.
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Old 04-08-2013, 06:29 PM   #10
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Dont feel badly Joe, I am just as lost as you are with the point of these tires...
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Old 04-08-2013, 07:01 PM   #11
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I can see a slight benefit if there is camber during early turn-in before the suspension has compressed and the body has started to roll...? maybe...
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:11 PM   #12
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See this is why I posted.

Does the car benefit from camber mechanically?

Will this tire negate any benefit?

Or does the car benefit from negative camber mechanically that hurts the tire.

And this is a solution.

I dont know all I know is that it is interesting. And is been boggling me. Which is another reason I posted. A lot of racers here who could see a benefit in this or debunk it for us.
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:19 PM   #13
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I dont see what it does for us. No reasonable suspension design gains camber during roll. IE you roll 5 degrees and the camber gain from compression of the outside tire is 3 degrees. And then there is the sidewall flexing you have to think about. So take joes first thought, you end up with basically a car with zero static camber, you turn hard, the outside wheels essentially ends up with positive camber and you end up on the sidewall. On joes 2nd example you basically end up with extra static camber at the tire contact patch and you get more onto the tire as it turns.

When you race an elise in stock class you end up with hoosiers shaped like these tires after the first 20 or so runs, and you normally flip them to get more life out of them. But before you flip you have joe's condition 2, and I dont know if they are faster like this or not. Once you flip them, they end up like joe's condition 1 and apparently they suck for the next few runs until you make them less trapezoid shaped.
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:34 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
I dont see what it does for us. No reasonable suspension design gains camber during roll. IE you roll 5 degrees and the camber gain from compression of the outside tire is 3 degrees. And then there is the sidewall flexing you have to think about. So take joes first thought, you end up with basically a car with zero static camber, you turn hard, the outside wheels essentially ends up with positive camber and you end up on the sidewall. On joes 2nd example you basically end up with extra static camber at the tire contact patch and you get more onto the tire as it turns.

When you race an elise in stock class you end up with hoosiers shaped like these tires after the first 20 or so runs, and you normally flip them to get more life out of them. But before you flip you have joe's condition 2, and I dont know if they are faster like this or not. Once you flip them, they end up like joe's condition 1 and apparently they suck for the next few runs until you make them less trapezoid shaped.
I don't think I am following that comment. I think you meant to say the opposite right? The outside wheel gains camber (it is the one under compression after all).
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:39 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Track View Post
I don't think I am following that comment. I think you meant to say the opposite right? The outside wheel gains camber (it is the one under compression after all).
Nope if you read my sentence that would end up with a net loss of 2 degrees of camber. The car has rolled 5 and the suspension has only made 3 in respect to the car, thats a loss of 2 degrees. These numbers are arbitrary. My source for most reasonable suspensions not gaining net camber in roll comes from doing about 200 iterations of rear suspension for a formula car and finally giving up when the only suspensions that gained camber ended up with completely un packageable linkages
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:14 PM   #16
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Umm..

Dont you only need a shorter top arm to gain negative chamber and a longer top arm to gain positive camber?

Dont you WANT neg camber gain?

Dann
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:44 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
Umm..

Dont you only need a shorter top arm to gain negative chamber and a longer top arm to gain positive camber?

Dont you WANT neg camber gain?

Dann
Yes any SLA suspension will gain camber in compression in relation to the car. I'm talking about net camber change in relation to the pavement. The car rolls 5 degrees, on the outside wheels this move the camber 5 degrees positive. Due to that roll the suspension compresses enough to gain 3 degrees of negative camber. The net change in camber is 2 degrees positive with relation to the ground. Until you get to some pretty extreme designs with VERY short upper control arms you wont be able to gain more camber though compression of the outside tire than you loose due to the roll loading the suspension.
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:11 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Yes any SLA suspension will gain camber in compression in relation to the car. I'm talking about net camber change in relation to the pavement. The car rolls 5 degrees, on the outside wheels this move the camber 5 degrees positive. Due to that roll the suspension compresses enough to gain 3 degrees of negative camber. The net change in camber is 2 degrees positive with relation to the ground. Until you get to some pretty extreme designs with VERY short upper control arms you wont be able to gain more camber though compression of the outside tire than you loose due to the roll loading the suspension.
There is some big assumptions here. First you are not accounting for camber gained due to caster and other steering "terms".

Second camber in relation to the chassis and camber in relation to the ground are different here. Your static camber is measured in relation to the ground. The Dynamic camber you are discussing is in relation to the chassis and is definitely "positive" (ie you gain positive camber), but you definitely do not have positive (or should not at least) camber in relation to the ground.
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:12 PM   #19
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It seem that we may have a fundamental disagreement as to what certain words mean. Specifically, whether a "loss" of camber means "more highly negative camber."
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Old 04-08-2013, 11:43 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
It seem that we may have a fundamental disagreement as to what certain words mean. Specifically, whether a "loss" of camber means "more highly negative camber."
Camber is kind of a hard work to describe in terms of "loss" and "gain". Leafys' post makes my eyes bleed.



Back in the day, some tire makers would use different side-wall construction to work with camber challenged cars.
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