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Old 04-13-2010, 09:41 AM   #41
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I've had a few different people drive the car and I think the consensus is that the brakes are awesome. The differences that people are seeing is because they are comparing them when they are cold versus when they have some heat in them, nothing more.

I'll be putting regular pads in the fronts for street driving shortly. For now I'm just spending time putting some miles on what I have and the more I drive it the better they feel to me. The proportioning valve is something that's completely unrelated to the fronts locking up. It's just another piece of the puzzle that I feel will allow the car to stop even better and others have shared that same opinion.
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Old 04-13-2010, 11:28 AM   #42
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The proportioning valve will help no questioning that at all. If you are using street service pads for the track that is a huge part of the problem. I have been a serious track rat in the past, I can tell you if you want to track your car you absolutely need race pads to get the most out of the car.

What I have done in the past with my street/track toys is to have a second set of pads and rotors that are dedicated for track use. The night before I go to the track I nut and bolt the car and switch out my street setup for my track setup. Factory/street pads are not designed for the abuse/temps generated at the track during spirited driving. Spend the extra money on good set of rotors and race pads for the track, you will not regret it.

Last edited by hingstonwm; 04-13-2010 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 04-13-2010, 12:01 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by wayne_curr View Post
It seems to work a little different with turbo miatas. We carry a lot more speed into corners whereas a spec miata is exercising its ability to fly around the track hitting the brakes as little as possible.


Wayne with all due respect, you carry more speed to the corner not into the corner with a turbo car. If you are trying to carry the extra speed the turbo provides you on the straight, through the corner, you are not going to be as fast.

I have thousands...yes thousands of track miles in spec miata, and driving one is not an exercise of using the brakes as little as possible. If fact, you use the brakes quite hard in a spec miata. There is just less energy/speed to bleed off when compared to a turbo miata. But this may not always be the case. Yes, a turbo car may have more acceleration, but a turbo car on street tires may not have as fast a trap speed as a SM on race tires. However, all things being equal, you will have more energy to dissipate with a turbo car before entering a corner.

As I mentioned in a previous post. Tires have a finite amount of grip. Grip is divided into traction for braking and cornering on the front tires; braking, cornering, and acceleration on the rear tires. Notice braking comes before cornering and acceleration, just like it does on the track. The more traction you use for braking the less traction you have available for cornering, and acceleration. If you get your braking done in a straight line before entering the corner you now have all the friction/grip/traction developed by the tire available for cornering/acceleration. Try to accelerate too quickly through the corner and you run out of friction/grip/traction and push out of the corner off of your line. Of course there are other factors at work, but all things being equal, the person that manages the friction/traction provided by their tires the best, will be the fastest.
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Old 04-13-2010, 12:15 PM   #44
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Wayne with all due respect, you carry more speed to the corner not into the corner with a turbo car. If you are trying to carry the extra speed the turbo provides you on the straight, through the corner, you are not going to be as fast.

That is more or less what I meant to say I think.
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Old 04-13-2010, 12:22 PM   #45
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That is more or less what I meant to say I think.
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Old 04-13-2010, 12:44 PM   #46
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Whatever, dude.
TL;DR your lecture
I'm not questioning your track experience. Compared to mine (read:0), you obviously know more about racing on a track than I do. I spoke up because no matter how many times Jason has directly said that he probably just needed more practice, you keep regurgitating the same thing over and over again like a broken record. We all get it, modulation is the key, we aren't retarded. I do know what good brakes feel like however, and I'm of the opinion that there is simply too much brake up front given the characteristics of these brakes, and that a prop valve would help level things out. I was most likely too heavy on them, I'll give you that considering I had just come from driving my car with a completely stock 1.6 braking system.

I don't think you are talking out of your ***, or being 'harsh' in your suggestions, but I do think that you are being a' holier than thou' king of the track know it all and quite frankly I find it a little irritating. If you disagree, look at how you react to someone's differing opinion on an internet message board. You wrote a 1/2 page speech to disagree with my 4 sentence opinion.

I don't want a problem with you, it seems like you have a lot of good info to offer, and it is really great to have people like you around. Please though, tone down the preaching so you don't come off looking like a dick.
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Old 04-13-2010, 01:12 PM   #47
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If you are using street service pads for the track that is a huge part of the problem.
I'm running track pads on this car at the moment. That's why I am trying to get a good feel for them. I had confidence in the stock setup and as I practice I'm getting that confidence back with this setup. I will be switching to a street pad for weekend cruising and such while putting the track pads on for track events, the car isn't a daily.

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I was most likely too heavy on them, I'll give you that considering I had just come from driving my car with a completely stock 1.6 braking system.
I think a lot of the issue has to do with them being cold when you were driving it. Once they get a bit of heat in them they feel solid. The more time I spend driving it the better I like them. Next time we go for a drive, we'll switch cars for a bit and I'm certain you'll get a good feel for them.
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Old 04-13-2010, 01:20 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by hingstonwm View Post


Wayne with all due respect, you carry more speed to the corner not into the corner with a turbo car. If you are trying to carry the extra speed the turbo provides you on the straight, through the corner, you are not going to be as fast.

I have thousands...yes thousands of track miles in spec miata, and driving one is not an exercise of using the brakes as little as possible. If fact, you use the brakes quite hard in a spec miata. There is just less energy/speed to bleed off when compared to a turbo miata. But this may not always be the case. Yes, a turbo car may have more acceleration, but a turbo car on street tires may not have as fast a trap speed as a SM on race tires. However, all things being equal, you will have more energy to dissipate with a turbo car before entering a corner.

As I mentioned in a previous post. Tires have a finite amount of grip. Grip is divided into traction for braking and cornering on the front tires; braking, cornering, and acceleration on the rear tires. Notice braking comes before cornering and acceleration, just like it does on the track. The more traction you use for braking the less traction you have available for cornering, and acceleration. If you get your braking done in a straight line before entering the corner you now have all the friction/grip/traction developed by the tire available for cornering/acceleration. Try to accelerate too quickly through the corner and you run out of friction/grip/traction and push out of the corner off of your line. Of course there are other factors at work, but all things being equal, the person that manages the friction/traction provided by their tires the best, will be the fastest.
stfu newb and stop being so damn mean until you have a few k posts I challenge you to a foot race
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Old 04-13-2010, 01:25 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Jeff_Ciesielski View Post
I don't want a problem with you, it seems like you have a lot of good info to offer, and it is really great to have people like you around. Please though, tone down the preaching so you don't come off looking like a dick.
Don't want any trouble either.

Yeah, I did take exception to your bench racing coaching comment. Hence the whatever dude reply to your bench racing comment.

I have been an instructor for a different corporate events and off and on as time allows for SCCA events. It has been my experience that most drivers have very little idea what is involved in hustling a car around a track. It is much more than standing of the gas until the last possible second. I go into that in greater detail in one of my posts.

Sorry if you think my post comes across with a "know it all attitude" or preaching. That was not my intention. I have worked with many drivers in the on track setting. If it is a new experience, the track can be an intimidating place. I have found it is easiest to impart knowledge and concepts by simplifying the delivery. It was never my intention to talk down to anyone just try to make the concept easy to understand. It has been my experience that most don't get it until you simplify it. That is all I was attempting to do.

Looking back at it, my first post was pretty snide, and I owe the OP an apology. But I won't apologize for my other posts. They are more in depth as they go, and I don't feel they were condescending' or "preaching in anyway, of course that is my opinion. We also have the choice to just ignore each others post if we find we rub each other the wrong way. Not all personalities mesh well.
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Old 04-13-2010, 01:29 PM   #50
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So, which one of you magicians can put the tread back on my tires?
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Old 04-13-2010, 01:30 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by magnamx-5 View Post
stfu newb and stop being so damn mean until you have a few k posts I challenge you to a foot race
If you call me out I am going to defend myself. Hopefully you are being tongue in check with the stfu comment.

How was I being mean?

Newb to the forum yeah, new the track not a chance. So if you were being tongue and cheek...cool if not. then I guess we can just tell each other to.
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Old 04-13-2010, 01:49 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by JayL View Post
So, which one of you magicians can put the tread back on my tires?

Jay I can do that!

Sounds like you took a good look at the tires and deemed them unusable. I think you said they are not on the car any longer. I have not seen them but trust your instincts. Could you post a pic or two of the damage?

It is possible to get away with running flat spotted tires on the rear of the car, if they are not to severely damaged. Sometimes you can put them on the back and not even feel a vibration.

The problem with flat spots is once you have them threshold braking is lowered. This is more an issue with fronts. You probably know this from experience so I won't go into details.

Brake bias will help you get the cars braking balanced to your driving style which is what we all strive for with our cars. Sounds like we think a like as far as brakes go. I assume the 4 pots you have are the ones that are commonly available for Miatas, the ones produced by Wilwood, correct. What is the pad that you are using? Are there different pad choices for your setup? You know Hawks, Carbotechs and such? I have personally always run hawk blues. They just fit my style, and I like their predictability. Having no personal experience with your brake set up I can't offer to much advice.

Toyo has reintroduced the RA-1 for the Miata that may be a great choice for you, or it may not. They offer good predictability and can take a lot of abuse. Hoosier makes a great tire too, but they don't last as long as the RA-1, they are fast though. Trade offs right? How fast do you want to go? How much money do you want to spend.

Hope this helps get us back on topic!

(edited for one other thought) I looked back and didn't see mention of what tires you are running. Are they a street tire, an R rated dot tire, or a slick? Big brakes can overwhelm street tires pretty quickly.

Last edited by hingstonwm; 04-13-2010 at 02:05 PM.
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Old 04-13-2010, 02:03 PM   #53
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The tires are off the car and the Mickey Thompsons are back on. I did have them on the back for a bit, but even after my best attempt they still are pretty bad. They are past the wear bars on the inside portion and have over half thread on the remaining portion. I'll take a photo when I get home today. I could probably switch them from side to side, but if I'm going to get them mounted and balanced I'd rather just put a good set on.

I'm running the Carbotech XP10s on the front with the Trackspeed BBK and stock rears with XP8s for now. As for tires, I'm on street tires as I get back into driving on a track. It's been awhile so I'm starting over with the basics. Perhaps in a year or two I will go with a decent set of tires. I would rather be slow with cheap tires than slow with good tires at this point.
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Old 04-13-2010, 09:22 PM   #54
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Can't give you an informed opinion about your brakes. I have always run hawks. Though I did borrow a set of carbotechs' in an emergency and they worked well, but I don't remember the compound.

I can appreciate that thought process on the tires. The one thing that is nice about driving street tires is they are slippery. This means that you can learn car control, and feel the car drift at slower speeds. Of course you will still be on the edge when in a drift and it can actually be harder to catch a car if it steps out a bit on street tires. But they are a great teaching tool, I always recommend driving laps on street tires if they are available.

You should track down some of the SM guys in your area and see what they have available as take-offs. Some times you can get lucky, and find good rubber for next to nothing. SM's run on 205-50-15 and a 15x7 wheel. I know your car will easily overpower the tire but they would be good to practice with.

One of the things I do with students on track days is have them run on their street rubber then send them back out on race rubber. Usually when they come back in it is like a revelation, you can see the light has come on and they really start to understand the whole traction equation. All of a sudden the car has tons of traction left after turn in and they can drive through the corner. I usually here something to the point of "I am getting (select gear of choice) 50 foot sooner out of the corner., and Im 300 rpm higher at the next braking zone".

The back to back between street and race rubber really shows the short coming of the street tires, and allows them to start sneaking up on the entrance and exit speed and gives them a feel for how stable the car can feel at a spirited pace.

How much track time do you plan to get over the summer?

One other thought, when you drive at the track try covering your speedometer and relate everything to gears and rpm. Speedometers can be a distraction on the track.

Good luck and enjoy the track time!!
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Old 04-13-2010, 10:07 PM   #55
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I'm hoping to do at least one track day each month starting in May. Just lapping days and I'm looking into time trials. The street tires will work good because I can run them in all weather conditions and also when I go on regular drives with the locals. Hopefully I can get a good feel for the car before it ever gets out to the track so I can purely be out there improving my driving instead of fighting with the car.
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Old 04-14-2010, 03:04 AM   #56
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Just be cautious, road racing can be hazardous to your drag racing career!!! There is something about driving a car at the limits for an extended period of time that becomes very addictive.

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Old 04-14-2010, 03:42 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by hingstonwm View Post
If you call me out I am going to defend myself. Hopefully you are being tongue in check with the stfu comment.

How was I being mean?

Newb to the forum yeah, new the track not a chance. So if you were being tongue and cheek...cool if not. then I guess we can just tell each other to.
um why else would a chalenge you to a foot race newb? come on get with the program
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Old 04-14-2010, 11:22 AM   #58
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Sorry when you got your back to the wall you kind of get protective. I guess I just don't know how to read your sense of humor. 7,700 post in less than 4 years, do you even have time to drive your car??
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Old 04-15-2010, 07:22 PM   #59
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You don't need a proportioning valve
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a proportioning valve will help
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If you are locking up the tires, you are to heavy on the pedal...period, or there is a problem with the set up of the system, a brake bias valve will not fix this.
Care to make up your mind?

For all the blabbing you did about traction circles, you neglected to mention that poor brake proportioning will lock the fronts up before the rears have used up all their traction. All the rear traction in the world doesn't help if the fronts have none. Add a bias valve and suddenly the rear brakes are actually doing something, which means you can stick it in deeper and step harder before the fronts lock up - and you can rotate the car while you're still on the brakes, and tune the way the car makes that rotation (not at all or very quickly). The suggestion that he simply needs more practice braking instead of a bias valve is laughable.

Open your world a little. Just because it's not legal in SM doesn't mean it won't make the car faster and easier to drive.
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Old 04-15-2010, 09:06 PM   #60
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Open your world a little. Just because it's not legal in SM doesn't mean it won't make the car faster and easier to drive.
You think I don't know this? My original statement was made before I realized that he was running 4 pot wilwoods up front. So, of course a proportioning valve will help. As long as the rest of the system is free of flaws.

Blabbing huh? Okay I will not attempt to share info in the future. Do you think everyone at this forum is well versed in track driving and the concepts that I was trying to share. My fault, I wont attempt to share anymore information.

Instead of paraphrasing my post, making it look like I have done a 180 on a whim, quote all of the post, so it can be seen that once I realized I had made a mistake about his brake system, I maned up and said so.

Had he been running a factory system as I first thought. I would have stuck to my, you need more practice statement. My mistake, I corrected it though. Of course I realize that you don't make mistakes. Did you even bother to notice that I stated, I didn't realize the brake upgrade. Or are you so **** fire in hurry to throw down and start a fight that you don't care that I admitted my mistake and given the new information changed my point of view?

Given the fact that the OP is new to road course driving. I intentionally left out trail braking and car rotation. It is not exactly road course 101 in my opinion. I hope that you will agree that the art of trail braking for car rotation is a more advanced concept that a green track guy should not be trying.

The OP and I have had a good exchange. It seems I have ruffled your feathers, and in my opinion you are looking for a fight because of your paraphrased quotes. My about face was based on finding more information out about his car. My fault for not asking more questions up front and just assuming he was running stock calipers.

****, anyone else want to throw down with me?

Last edited by hingstonwm; 04-15-2010 at 09:34 PM.
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