New wheel size survey - 949 Racing
 

Take our new wheel size survey.
https://949racing.com/wheel-survey/
Lets us know what you are looking for, even if its not for an 86

Comments and discussion here very much appreciated but we will only use the data from the survey to determine what sizes get made next.
We'll begin accepting pre-orders for the new wheels in December. Get on our mailing list or follow us to get notified.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...714344b138.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...f0c7dfd359.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...7491cad938.jpg

What is the difference in these designs, is it just cosmetic or are weights, offsets etc particular to each?

... or have I missed something along the way?

"Sanger" is an interesting choice for a rim/wheel name, it's slang in Australia for "Sandwich" :P
- I voted for it but still love the 6UL rim/wheel (15x8 6ULs on my car at the moment)
- looking forward to listing "Sangers" in my "modz" list!

The images are just examples of the designs. Strength to weight ratio doesn't vary much between the 3. But we can create any wheel size in any design. That's the point of the survey. Our focus isn't entirely on MX5 wheels. We're doing wheels for many other platforms, as we always have. But I thought I would drop the survey here just to check back in.

Any of those designs would look sweet on my CTS-V, but there's probably not enough demand to do 19's and it's not an option on the survey. I'm having a hard time finding wheels that I like in the size that I think I'd want though. It currently has a drag pack on it with 17x10 beadlocks in the rear and 18x8 up front lol.

5x120mm bolt pattern.
19x9.5" ET45
19x10.5" ET45

19's are in the survey, but not Cadillac. I'd either choose Camaro (same PCD/offset) or email. No vote is no wheel.

I just zoomed in and figured out the difference between the 6UL and Coto design. Looks like the Coto would be most susceptible to curb damage, slightly less so the Sanger. The spokes look to be more flush than the original 6UL design. I won't say which I'm voting for and I'm usually careful with curbs but also park as far away from other cars, up against a curb so that also plays into my decision.

For the lay person, is there much difference in strength between the 6UL spokes attaching closer to the center of the rim barrel versus the Coto and Sanger mounted to the rim outer edge?

Thanks!

No wheel we have ever made or will make, has spokes that protrude past the flange. Protruding spokes in wheel to wheel create carnage.

Coto is stiffer in some modes than 6UL but the differences are tiny. Like an order of magnitude smaller than the fatigue load cycle targets we set for every design. Like getting 57 mpg or 57.15mpg. The key differentiator is the that Coto has way more brake clearance than an equivalent 6UL without sacrificing weight or strength. Beyond that, the lip on the 6UL is only possible with medium to low offsets. With higher offsets, it requires that protruding spoke that we refuse to do. Even with high offsets, the Coto allows for some concavity that the 6UL loses. Note how much prettier the old Gen 4 15x8 +36 6UL was than the 17x8 +45 G4 6UL. Thus, our 15x7 & 15x8 4x100 wheels will be the 6UL design. The 15x9 will be a Coto so it clears our BX1175, which is impossible with the 6UL face. The 15x6 doesn't have enough room to put a lip on it so it will also be a Coto to retain a bit of concavity and keep the spokes tucked in.

The 6UL is still the most popular in our survey for two reasons: It has that exposed, uninterrupted lip that almost no other wheel features, and it's "comfort food" familiarity. The Coto is amazing in person and will gradually win people over, given time. S2000 owners want an ultra high offset 17x9 +53 in the 6UL and will complain about its lack of brake clearance. So it too, will be a Coto that will fit 355mm stoppers.

Select "Staggered" then open the rear wheel size drop down.

Would like to see a 9.5"x15", just because I like beryllium.

15x9.5 option added.

No FC RX7 option for 17x9 +25

So I picked The FD fitment. Probably not much call for that size...

FD is much higher offset and width. Base FC 4x114.3. GTU & churbo 5x114.3. Shoot us an email with the information so we can add it to the database.

Based on this, it seems that producing 6ULs makes little sense over the Cotos, unless you get overwhelming support for the 6ULs which I doubt because they limit brake options, especially given that it took me a while to even notice the difference between the two and I have 15x8 6ULs on my car.

Big brake clearance is not really a concern for the 15X8. Very few people are trying to stuff 11.75 or 12" brakes in it. Clears our BX11 just fine. But for bigger brake clearance or higher offsets, the Coto is a more efficient design. For some generations of Mustang and earlier generations of BMW their lower offset can still work with big brakes and the 6UL face.

Apex offers an FL5 that has a nice lip like the 6UL. But they only offer it in certain low offset fitments. For other fitments they only offer their designs with spokes going to the outer flange like our Coto. Same deal.

But yes, ultimately the 6UL is a far less versatile design than the Coto.

need more x10" options so thats my vote...

Agreed on the 15 x 9.5

I need some 949 on my 911.

5x130mm
19x9 ET50
and
19x11 ET60 or 19x12” ET63/65

Thanks! We're really making an effort to get into that market space. Most of the 911 fitments require their own tooling to make an properly optimized wheel for the platform. Not shared with Cayman/Spyder for the most part. In the past, we optimized for 5x114.3 pcd. Porsche stuff again, really requires it's own proprietary tooling to optimize the casting. So it's a big hurdle, but we're getting a lot of inquiries and developing a mailing list. We're hoping we can make it happen by Q2/23.

We have a network of racers, business associates and friends with pretty much every Porsche platform that have offered to let us make 3D scans of the wheels and gather data. The racers and shop owners provide invaluable data of the variability of each platform. You have fully stock builds then the HPDE, auto-x and racers that roll fenders, increase camber, stuff bigger tires in. That data allows us to develop fitments that work across the range of user profiles, from OEM+ to full race.

Share that survey link anywhere you think it'll reach the right audience.

I got some tooling for you.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...04d5f5305b.png

I already have multiple sets of 6UL's for my miatas, so I voted COTO. Increased brake clearances with the same strength sounds like all bonus to me. I am also trying to pick up an MR2 Spyder soon to use as a track car, so I want to see how wide of 15's I can fit on it. I see people fitting 15x9's and saying there is room for more, but I don't see them put on 15x10's. Any idea on what kind of offset would fit? Perhaps some 15x9.5's would be perfect. The offsets needed on NA/NB and the Spyders seem basically the same. Either that, or just because that is what is easily available.

We haven't scanned a ZZW30 wheel well and brake yet. If you know of anyone with a stocker in Socal, send them our way. We'll make it worth their while. Last time we looked into that fitment, we settled on 15x8 front, 15x9 rear. The new wheels will both be 2mm lower offset than previous 6UL's.

I think this is on 10s and 11s. So hot.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...4edaf4846c.jpg

Yeah, I noticed the offsets now are slightly lower than previous 6UL's. I got in contact with AJ at Relentless Racing and he said that he has several Spyders you could scan. He is in Redondo Beach.

There will certainly be Porsche owners that are OK with a wheel that doesn't have maximum concavity or the lowest weight. Still looks hot. For those that are looking for a fully optimized and platform specific fitment though, it will require a new tool. We will see how the market develops for us.

I've found Porsche owners to be either absolutely clueless and have the dealer do everything -- even replace motors at ~20K just because -- or they know everything.

The community on rennlist kinda reminds me of m.net like circa 2000. Just buy Koni Sports and Randall Intake sort of replies.

I have money on standby for new wheels. Wanted 6ul for years but missed my chance.

Take my money next year.

teaser..
15x9 +34 Coto. CAD screen cap. Clears our BX1175. There will be some detail changes to the barrel and rear flange before production, but the look should hold.
Cap is flat aluminum, flush with hub well. Same design language as 6UL, spoke pattern emulated but with spokes attached to flange instead of drop center. Bunch more brake clearance.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1b29e13ec9.jpg

Rough weight? Would honestly love it if it were a lb heavier than a 6ul

Strength to weight ratio of the Coto is about the same as the 6UL, so it should weight about the same in a given fitment.

Coto is my favorite too. 6UL looks hot in low offset fitments but loses some appeal in higher offset fitments when the lip gets small and spokes get more curved for caliper clearance.


Much wheel nerdery (sorry)
We no longer begin each design with weight targets as our starting point. Everything we do now is based on our proprietary cornering fatigue life, stiffness and bend resistance targets. There are other standards to be met but we know these are the key metrics for an LHP wheel. Lots of rear flange, spoke profile, milling, machining, barrel shape and dimension variants evaluated. The result of bringing all the wheel design in house (previously done by factory), is that we have been able to make significant optimizations of strength to weight ratio. Our best rear flange design adds about 2.2% mass but increases radial bend resistance by about 21%. Tweaking barrel dimensions results in similar gains in bend resistance and mass gains. The final flange and barrel specs will be a balance of the two as one affects the other. The frontside improvements in the hub pad and spoke and barrel areas earn us a "weight credit" that gets spent on the backside flange to increase bend resistance. If we have a weight target now, it's to be around the weight of other market options but a bunch stronger. We quantify that by actually buying those wheels and killing them in the lab. Sad to see a brand new but cracked RPF1 with dye penetrant all over it, but it's key and invaluable insight. Our suppliers never pursued optimization to nearly the extent that we now have during these few years of G5 development. It's a step change for us.

We lab tested our first 18" Coto prototypes early 2022. Results matched our FEA to a large degree. Weight competitive with other high end forged and flow formed wheels in that segment but at (830kg) 20% higher than VIA load standard & 800~1M+ cycles. We've have continued to evolve the designs since that test so we're really excited to roll out the new stuff. Our new wheels are built to a safety factor of ~4.0 and 10% higher load, depending on variant. So 500k+ cornering fatigue cycles that JWL requires 100k to pass. That's roughly the same safety factor as the tough TUV standard. 15" 4x100 (cornering) JWL load is 500kg, which our discontinued G4 15x9 wheel averaged ~150k. New wheel goes about 500k-1m cycle at 550kg. In fact, every new wheel we offer will be 10% over JWL/VIA at 500k-1m cycles with almost no weight gain. We built our brand on frequently having the lightest wheel in certain fitments. That taught us (and the rest of the industry) that JWL/VIA standards, even when exceeded, don't always support the way the wheels will get used. Nor will those standards meet customer expectations of an affordable LHP (Light High Performance) cast wheel that's lighter than OEM, 2" wider, lasts forever track days and never bends.

We recently lab tested a 15x8 Heliogram and RPF1 @ 550kg. Our discontinued G4 15x8 500kg rated wheel tested at 500kg went an average of 40% more test cycles than either, the caveat being the lower test load. What was interesting is the RPF1 is rated at 500kg but tested a bit better than the VIA 550kg rated Heliogram despite being a whopping 1.2lbs lighter. The Heliogram is a neat wheel but we love the RPF1. It's pretty, cleverly engineered and manufactured using the cutting edge (and expensive) tilt cast + flow form process. Strength to weight ratio is exemplary. Much mass reduction is gained by the RPF1's stepped, smaller diameter barrel but at the cost of brake clearance. No free lunch. The Heliogram has way more brake clearance than the RPF1. It's important to note that the Heliogram cost about half of the RPF1. The Heliogram, like all Konigs/ Advantis, and pretty much every other cast wheel on the market are gravity cast- flow form. Our G2/3/4 wheels were one of the scant few low pressure cast options. Our new wheels are gravity cast - flow form and we're developing tilt cast- flow form for some future larger diameter fitments. Apex did a neat experiment where they tested 20 wheels at gradually increasing loads per wheel. That generates a neat load vs fatigue life curve. Cool idea so we plan to do the same.

For stiffness, there is no industry standard or metric. So we designed and are currently building our own test rig to quantify just how much deflection and camber loss a wheel sees at 1.5g. We can determine what our wheels do in CAD but without any visibility on what our competitors wheels do. Thus the test rig. We buy other wheels to evaluate on our stiffness tester. Then lab test for cornering fatigue, cut them apart to 3D scan the shape so we have a CAD model. I'd like to be able to publish some data on the relative camber loss of several different wheels in the same fitment. We'll see how that data evolves.

Final weight of the 15x9 Coto showed here, dunno yet. Mass properties are still well below the old G4 so we will spend that "weight credit" on adding more strength before production. We'll always publish final weights any pre-order page when the time comes. Expect most legacy fitments to gain 2-4% mass and be roughly 2-3x stronger in our key metrics of cornering fatigue, cornering stiffness and bend resistance and at higher load ratings. Some variants will actually be lighter than before.

15x8 RPF1 tested at 550kg 279k cycles (wheel rated at 500kg so this is impressive)
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...9daa577d27.jpg



15x8 G4 6UL (discontinued) tested @ 500kg, 465k cycles
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...4e89c21cb7.jpg

"The form was unable to submit. Please contact the site administrator."

Thanks for the heads up. We'll get it fixed.

You're welcome.

All 3 are gorgeous, but those Sangers in Miata 15x9 would finally be a replacement for my not ideally sized Kosei K1's.

Thanks for keeping up with the wheels.

Appreciate the positive feedback Tim. After being without wheels for so long we are pretty stoked to say the least.

Testing survey page. Desktop works fine. Mobile woks but doesn't "submit". argh

I am still unable to get it to work on my desktop pc. I'm using chrome.

You broke it!
Just tested desktop/chrome and it didn't work on my end either.

Had to rebuild the survey page. Seems to work on all devices now.

alert("great job!");

Yep, works for me now.

Any ETA updates for some of us about to buy Dekagrams to fit your 11.75 brake kit? Really wish they fit my current 6UL's...sigh.

Actionable information always goes out to our broadcast email list first. If you're not already on that shoot us one info@949racing.com.

The new 15x9 will be a Coto as it is not possible to fit our BX1175 behind the inset spokes of a 15x9 6UL. You can see from the pictures in the 1st post,. They look the pretty much the same viewed straight on, Coto just has to spoke over the lip.

I'm just making this estimate up based on what we know now,. But I think we might be able to ship 15x9 Coto by mid July.

Does this mean no 15x9 Sangers?

As always, thank you for the information. I think I'm on the email list, or at least assumed I was since I'm registered on the site and participated in the survey.

Not the end of the world buying two sets of wheels this year I suppose. I need to find a set of 15 x 10" 6UL's. I haven't had any luck in the last year or so. Womp womp.

Possibly next year. Survey indicates 6UL and Coto are far more popular so they come first.

WARNING

THIS IS NOT AN ETA

:hahano:

CAD render of the 15x8 6UL. Finalized and ready for production. We're still working on the paint finish so that's the hold up currently. Assuming we can get that sorted soon, we could have wheels here by January or so. Production finish will be darker, much like the OEM finish on ND wheels. Other widths in 15" and 17's will follow soon after the 15x8. We'll send a broadcast email to our mailing list when we open up for pre-orders.

About 11.9 lbs, rated at 550kg, tilt cast and flow formed, lifetime warranty

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...62b30acaa6.jpg

Charcoal (satin black)
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...e69d45e267.jpg

What about the Sanger?

Current plan is to release the 6UL first. That's what we're known for and what everyone is waiting for. Then Coto, then Sanger.

Doing the 6ul first is obvious. Coto seems like a 6ul for fitments that can't fit a 6ul, kinda like a 6ulr just done better. I think the Sanger would poll better if people were able to see them on a car; they know 6ul's look good IRL. I see the Sanger as a nicer K1 in modern widths & offsets, assuming a 15" Sanger keeps the thin spokes instead of getting thick like some Rota. A gravity cast Sanger in lower volumes would be nice for us who don't ride all out, but I can also see a gravity cast wheel not being in your ethos.

Regardless, we all can't wait to see the new 6UL's!

Actually you've called it pretty accurately. The plan is to keep 6UL and Coto as the higher end tilt cast offering. Sanger as a gravity cast - flow form can be made in much lower volumes and a lower retail price. Our intent is to use the Sanger for niche or especially price sensitive fitments. That said, the Sanger will use the same common construction technique as pretty much every other wheel on the market including some relatively high-end wheels seen on European cars. Tilt casting is very exclusive.

Have you been listening in on our company meetings? :hahano:

ND wheels
 

Render of the Nickel 17x8 +38 6UL

17x8 clears OEM Brembo and 12.19 Wilwood. 17x9 Z+45 might also fit the 12.88 Wilwood but we haven't checked it yet. Both have the same face. Weights should be about 15.1 for the 17x8 and about 15.9 for the 17x9. VIA rated at 585kg, 17% higher than our G4 wheel (which was 5% lighter). Knurled beads, double valve, lifetime warranty. We'll also offer in in Charcoal, pictured earlier. We hope to open pre-orders for the ND wheel in September. Ship date TBA.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...e4bb1a913b.jpg
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...ad2c99df19.jpg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...9d85ec5fec.jpg

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...1caf8e41cf.png
... saving

Unless I missed it, hes said a few times they're not doing the 6ul in 15x9 again unfortunately.... much sad

Most likely, yeah. The plan is to do 15x9 in coto for brake clearance.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...3657dff856.gif

Don't worry, they'll still be sexy :)