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Old 03-14-2015, 04:53 PM   #301
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We didn't have time to touch closed loop boost. Basically what you need to do is figure out your open loop boost first, then translate that data over to your boost target bias table. From there, start in basic mode, adjust your slider sensitivity until it hits your target with a bit of variation.

Here is my final dyno plot. For some reason it's not keeping the same dyno corrections from the location. I will have to figure out if it's possible to set that in WinPEP. Also, this is OPEN LOOP BOOST, so it's spooling a tiny bit slower. Once I get my closed loop boost figured out I will post some more info. I am likely going to be putting it on a dyno for a few test pulls in May.



Here is the youtube from my final run:

Last edited by Chiburbian; 03-14-2015 at 05:19 PM.
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Old 03-20-2015, 01:03 PM   #302
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Default I'm such a creeper- boost creeper that is

I have been messing with my boost control again and it seems I have some pretty serious boost creep issues.

Here are a couple points to observe:
6th gear
ZERO duty cycle on my EBC - so basically wastegate pressure.
Hits 200kpa at 5600rpm.



Next, later in my drive my wastegate arm fell off. With wastegate wide open I was reaching basically 9psi by 6200rpm. This is just nuts. Next step port wastegate? I am also thinking that my wastegate arm is binding causing some of my problems.

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Old 03-20-2015, 01:45 PM   #303
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Forgive me for not searching through your thread to find you goals. Are you wanting to be able to use a switch or EBC to run lower boost than that 9psi? If not, why do you care?

I was noticing that your torque is holding really well on the dyno and I'd think that is what you would want.

To roughly quote Vlad, don't fix the creep, just turn up the rest of it.
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Old 03-20-2015, 02:13 PM   #304
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I care because I am running a completely bone stock motor and I feel better having boost cut available to save my ***. 200kpa might be perfectly safe at redline but at 4000rpm it may window my block.

You may be right, but I can't afford any problems with the car right now.
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Old 03-20-2015, 03:57 PM   #305
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Sorry, Stephen, I mis-understood that you were concerned with the 9psi. I presumed the 15 psi was due to your EBC settings, and that you could tame it back down some. My experience is that waste gate wide open, and controlled open will result in similar boost levels at red-line. If that holds true for you, then should should be able to adjust the 15 down a bit.

It still seems encouraging to me that you should be able to tame it down, as long as you are OK with 10psi or so at redline. That's what I'm saying.

*EDIT* What kind of max torque are you shooting for?
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Old 03-20-2015, 04:55 PM   #306
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Stephen let's just cut that wastegate off and weld on an external gate.
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Old 03-20-2015, 05:00 PM   #307
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This is a possibility but I can't afford it right now. I am way over budget and I need some time to recover. Once I get my 6ULs and tires, get them all mounted up, sell my existing TR C3s with tires as well as my midpipe and OLD downpipe, maybe, just maybe I can go this route.



Short answer? Yes, I am SO over internal wastegates. (i'll make an exception for the EFR series turbos)
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Old 03-21-2015, 03:04 AM   #308
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Or how about this: keep the timing super low, and the fuel on the rich side, and have lots of mechanical empathy on the car while you recover/save up for a built engine.

Then, allofit.

I see no point in spending 300-350 on a housing and another 200-250 on a ewg + whatever other costs, to bump boost down a couple psi
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Old 03-21-2015, 01:25 PM   #309
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So, OK with no arm, but too much with waste gate only. I see these things that could help, but don't know which will work with your turbo (view this as seeds for thought):
1) Lower waste gate spring
2) Possibly a waste gate with longer throw. This would give an effect in between your Wastegate only log, and no arm log. I don't know if there is such a thing.
3) Port, as you mentioned above.

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Old 03-21-2015, 01:50 PM   #310
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3 is the proper solution
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Old 03-21-2015, 01:54 PM   #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Or how about this: keep the timing super low, and the fuel on the rich side, and have lots of mechanical empathy on the car while you recover/save up for a built engine.

Then, allofit.

I see no point in spending 300-350 on a housing and another 200-250 on a ewg + whatever other costs, to bump boost down a couple psi
Ok, I am going to attempt to translate and let me know if I am wrong...

By keep timing low and rich fuel you are saying you want to reduce the possibility of knock and possibly also reduce the amount of power created by the engine above say, 195kpa?

What I see here is a bunch of cascading outcomes from the bad(?) decision to run such a big turbo. I picked this turbo because it had more head room for future development but it seems that it is doing TOO good of a job.

Here are my options:

A) Remove turbo, port the turbo turbine housing for more flow. Approximate price? Free to $200 (If I pay someone else to do all the work).

B) Upgrade to (basic) tubular manifold with EWG. Need Manifold ($500), EWG ($250), EWG piping and modifications to DP ($200), ideally a new turbine housing ($400). IF I sell my current inconel studded BEGI manifold for $300 and my Flyin' Miata turbine outlet for $150, total outlay would be Approximately $900. Going with TIAL turbine housing allows me to avoid having to buy inconel studs for new manifold and allows me to go straight to V-band from the turbine out let instead of having to have an elbow of some sort.

C) Upgrade to fab9tuning tubular manifold with EWG. Need Manifold ($890), EWG ($250), EWG piping and modifications to DP ($200), TIAL turbine housing ($400). IF old manifold etc sold as above, total outlay $1,290 or so.

D) ATP "special" turbine housing solution. $300 for housing, $350 for EWG, $200 for piping and stuff. Total outlay? $850 or so.

E) Modify existing turbine housing to work like the ATP special housing. Total outlay maybe $700-750.

Of these, to me the only that make sense are porting the turbo or going with a completely new v-band manifold, and then only because it is the "end game" manifold.
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Old 03-21-2015, 02:08 PM   #312
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Yep, porting the hotside is the only solution that won't cost you an arm and a leg.
As for the timing question: knock, yes, but also cylinder pressure. many would argue that big boost with low timing is less dangerous than medium boost with high timing. Pig rich afr's are not as important in this scenario, so I wouldn't run it any lower than about 11.8
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Old 03-21-2015, 02:14 PM   #313
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I am kicking myself in the *** for not porting the manifold while it was out of the car for MONTHS this winter... Also - why are turbo manufacturers selling a product where so many people have this problem?
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Old 03-21-2015, 02:23 PM   #314
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One other thought. Is there any possibility that the EBC solenoid could be leaking?
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Old 03-21-2015, 02:30 PM   #315
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when no power is going to the EBC solenoid there is a free flow of boost from the compressor housing to the wastegate actuator. Theoretically if there was a boost leak from one of the hoses going from the compressor housing to the solenoid or from the solenoid to the actuator it could have this problem, but I don't believe that is my problem.
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Old 03-21-2015, 03:16 PM   #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiburbian View Post
Also - why are turbo manufacturers selling a product where so many people have this problem?
Because many other cars have way better, newer, higher flowing engines with way less restriction, on which this turbo would work just fine and not creep.

*EDIT: nvm, that was wrong. I was forgetting that more in = more out and this doesn't really fix the problem with an inefficient wg design. Though the more boost you run, the less this becomes a problem, so perhaps they're just assuming everyone that runs one will run 15+ psi rather than 9-10

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Old 03-21-2015, 03:23 PM   #317
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Wait - i'm confused... I don't want to clutter up my thread about this but it doesn't compute for me. I thought that boost creep was caused by air not being able to bypass the turbine wheel effectively enough? Are you referring to the compressor side needing to work less to flow the same amount of oxygen molecules into the combustion chamber? I seem to hear a lot of threads about boost creep/spike with this turbo. I guess you only see evidence when it doesn't work, but three motors I can say I found information about so far were volkswagen motors, SR20, and the toyota motor that is in lotus's.
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Old 03-22-2015, 09:32 PM   #318
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HAve you tried using a MBC? Maybe it's a problem with the ebc more than your turbo setup. Hahold ended up buying a hallman mbc, no more boost spikes.
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Old 03-23-2015, 06:36 PM   #319
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I don't think that will work. I bypassed the EBC and ran wastegate only and had boost spikes like a **** in every gear but 5th and 6th. After the boost spike the total boost fell back to wastegate pressure (with some creep, obviously).

Just to update, I am pulling the turbo sometime this week and having the turbine housing ported, and I am sending the rest of the turbo back to precision to check the seals. It's ok though because I found a couple other issues I want to work out. I know it runs (like a scalded dog IMO), now comes some refinement.

Speaking of which - brakes! I need em, they are hitting the "squeekers".

Here are my options, help me pick:
A) Keep current rotors if possible (they seem ok) and replace only pads. What pads for street? I'd like to keep costs down because I want to upgrade to a track worthy setup in the future, but I DO want brakes capable of doing a decent job when racing autocross but primarily it is a street car so no/low dust, at least the corrosive kind. Brake pads $???, Braided lines approx $100.
B) Fresh rotors, pads, and braided lines from 949 (or similar) $494
C) 949racing Wilwood 11" front brake package with braided rear lines, add rear rotors and rear pads $854
D) Flyin' Miata big brake kit (front and rear wilwoods, rear standard rotors) - $1,444

Really, I don't have the money for option C or D, and so unless I NEED to replace rotors, I think I will stick with lines and pads only. What pads are compatible with ALL former brake pads and don't suck?

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Old 03-23-2015, 06:39 PM   #320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
perhaps they're just assuming everyone that runs one will run 15+ psi rather than 9-10
I am thinking that's the likely answer. I wish I could afford an EWG setup because to me that will be the ultimate "correct" answer, but in the meantime this will have to do me.
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