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Old 03-16-2015, 09:52 AM   #21
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For the consensus of wisdom through experience, I'm going to go the MS route. With this, I've got to examine my fuel system plans again.

That said, with the welding talent and equipment that I have access to (neither of which is mine), I'm going to use a DIY manifold. Understanding that a ramhorn or other curvy manifold would flow better and more evenly, I might be best off at this point with a log for simplicity and economy. I will have an EGR pipe bung on it. Keeping the AC and PS, from the reading I've done here, I figure a high and forward mount would be best.
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Old 03-16-2015, 09:58 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LetItSnow View Post
For the consensus of wisdom through experience, I'm going to go the MS route. With this, I've got to examine my fuel system plans again.

That said, with the welding talent and equipment that I have access to (neither of which is mine), I'm going to use a DIY manifold. Understanding that a ramhorn or other curvy manifold would flow better and more evenly, I might be best off at this point with a log for simplicity and economy. I will have an EGR pipe bung on it. Keeping the AC and PS, from the reading I've done here, I figure a high and forward mount would be best.
Go look at the pictures in my mkturbo group buy thread for how to build a manifold and downpipe for cheap.
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Old 03-16-2015, 10:16 AM   #23
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Believe me, I've spent a lot of time in that thread. My concerns lie with the question of whether it would be biting off more than I can chew and the increase in opportunities for cracks. 404: Turbo Yoda not found. Am I overestimating the complexity of the manifold?

Edit: Ah, I got that thread mixed up with another one, which had some much more elaborate bits in it.

Last edited by LetItSnow; 03-16-2015 at 10:32 AM.
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Old 03-16-2015, 10:22 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LetItSnow View Post
Believe me, I've spent a lot of time in that thread. My concerns lie with the question of whether it would be biting off more than I can chew and the increase in opportunities for cracks. 404: Turbo Yoda not found. Am I overestimating the complexity of the manifold?
Or you could save yourself a lot of time hassle and risk and just buy an mk turbo setup
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Old 03-16-2015, 10:31 AM   #25
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ECU is easy to swap, injectors aren't bad either.

But where I personally had "snags" with this approach on other cars is the exhaust system. Re-installing both primary and secondary o2 sensors more specifically. Usually requires using the stock exhaust, which means the stock manifold too, which means lots of dis-assembly obviously. Alternative? Build a full OBD2 compliant turbo exhaust, with a cat, and a place for the secondary sensor. And hope the slightly richer running turbo set up doesn't kill the cat (its only a matter of time, they usually dont last, even the spun core ones). EGR integration is something to think about as well.

What I resorted to on the Integra was: Replacing the exhaust to stock, from the manifold back (including sensors). Stock ECU and Injectors go back in. It was worth it for once a year, to me, but it was much easier without an EGR or MAF, to deal with (assuming you choose to delete MAF when using MS).

Last edited by NBoost; 03-16-2015 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 03-16-2015, 10:52 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by NBoost View Post
ECU is easy to swap, injectors aren't bad either.

But where I personally had "snags" with this approach on other cars is the exhaust system. Re-installing both primary and secondary o2 sensors more specifically. Usually requires using the stock exhaust, which means the stock manifold too, which means lots of dis-assembly obviously. Alternative? Build a full OBD2 compliant turbo exhaust, with a cat, and a place for the secondary sensor. And hope the slightly richer running turbo set up doesn't kill the cat (its only a matter of time, they usually dont last, even the spun core ones). EGR integration is something to think about as well.

What I resorted to on the Integra was: Replacing the exhaust to stock, from the manifold back (including sensors). Stock ECU and Injectors go back in. It was worth it for once a year, to me, but it was much easier without an EGR or MAF, to deal with (assuming you choose to delete MAF when using MS).
Could you just not build a bolt in cat and a bolt in test pipe and swap as needed? Have the second O2 bung after the party that bolts in.
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Old 03-16-2015, 11:01 AM   #27
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Yes. However, I never knew how the stock ECU would handle an exhaust set up of that nature, even with the Primary and secondary sensors installed (with a turbo installed), and couldn't find anyone who actually did it that way successfully. It was my daily, so I didn't have time to try that method, plug in the stock ECU and then have the damned thing throw a CEL, all while after spending a few hundred dollars and fab'ing the test pipe and bolt in cat set up.

I also wasn't going to ignore the fact that I could swap to the whole stock exhaust, plug the oil feed and drains for the turbo, in about an hour. Done. No fabbing, no extra cat/test pipe laying around 364 days a year, no bull ****.
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Old 04-01-2015, 03:02 PM   #28
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All right, the MS3 is on order.

If the information in the FAQ is still valid, <injectors> are my next move.

The challenge with that is that I don't have any parameters for choosing any power goals. I can say this: I want to keep the stock bottom end and 5-speed. If I have to choose an arbitrary number, how about 240chp? It's about 11lb/hp with me in the car and it handily reverse-maths to 370cc injectors (at 60psi, 0.55 BSFC and 80% duty cycle). If there's a better way to choose power, I'm all ears.

In that regard, 370cc plug 'n' play injectors are available, and if I want some headroom in case I get crazy, I could grab some 420cc RX-8 injectors (same math, should be good for 275chp). I honestly don't think I'd need more.
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Old 04-01-2015, 03:05 PM   #29
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You want:
1) ev14 injectors. because price difference is small between mediocrity and excellence
2) if you get ev14 you can easily run as much as 600cc without sacrificing anything
3) this way if you later turn it up, you can, if you want to run e85, you can, etc.

Right now the best "bang for buck" appear to be the ev14 ford injectors that many are starting to run. get a set of flow tested ones from nigelt with all the hardware and call it a day. great price too
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Old 04-01-2015, 03:11 PM   #30
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I'd say Rx8 injectors in the least (ev6). should support roughly 230-250rwhp.

then EV14 of any size.

dont buy rx7 injectors or DW injectors.
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Old 04-01-2015, 03:14 PM   #31
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When it comes to modern injectors controlled by a modern EMS, there really is no such thing as "too much" until you go into the 1600+ sizes. My last miata, and the one before that, ran flawlessly on ID1000's on both pump gas and e85
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Old 04-24-2015, 12:43 PM   #32
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I can only believe that the higher the injector rate goes, the lower the resolution becomes. My ceiling for this build isn't very lofty.

I picked up a set of rebuilt and matched RX-8 yellow injectors, an Innovative MTX-L, a Stack boost gauge (hey, it matches the green and white on my dash) and my Braineack-built MS3X has arrived. That should be good for phase one.

While I get used to tuning, I figure I can install any rather "inert" bits like heat shielding.

Weir-Tech and several of its competitors in the flange market seem to have disappeared. While it's great to have so much to read, many vendors, links and photos have become obsolete, dried up or disappeared. Is there a current go-to company for exhaust and turbine flanges?
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Old 04-24-2015, 12:49 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LetItSnow View Post
I can only believe that the higher the injector rate goes, the lower the resolution becomes.
That would have been true...

.....in the 90's

The rx8 injectors are only better than ev1 junk. There are so many better options out there now. Oh well, enjoy the hot restart injector heatsoak.
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Old 04-24-2015, 01:03 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LetItSnow View Post
All right, the MS3 is on order.

If the information in the FAQ is still valid, <injectors> are my next move.

The challenge with that is that I don't have any parameters for choosing any power goals. I can say this: I want to keep the stock bottom end and 5-speed. If I have to choose an arbitrary number, how about 240chp? It's about 11lb/hp with me in the car and it handily reverse-maths to 370cc injectors (at 60psi, 0.55 BSFC and 80% duty cycle). If there's a better way to choose power, I'm all ears.

In that regard, 370cc plug 'n' play injectors are available, and if I want some headroom in case I get crazy, I could grab some 420cc RX-8 injectors (same math, should be good for 275chp). I honestly don't think I'd need more.
370cc is rather small for your power goals. Based on personal experience, 420-440cc would be adequate with some headroom, albeit with a relatively small amount of growth potential.

That said...



Quote:
Originally Posted by pretty much everyone, recently
Use ID1000s
To which you respond:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LetItSnow View Post
I can only believe that the higher the injector rate goes, the lower the resolution becomes. My ceiling for this build isn't very lofty.
And, as a general rule, you are of course correct.

Thing is, these Injector Dynamics injectors do in fact seem to be magical. I've heard, anecdotally, that the pintles are made from unicorn horn. And it's not like they're grinding 'em up and re-casting them; an entire horn is mounted on a lathe and cut down to make each individual injector- that's commitment to quality.

Fortunately, for pussies like you and I, ID does make a smaller 750cc version of the venerable Alpha Injector. If I were building an engine today, and had no intention of running E85 and producing axle-breaking levels of torque, that's probably the injector I'd select. At $480 a set including pigtails*, they're quite reasonably priced.



* = I have no experience with that vendor, they're just the one that ID redirects to.
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Old 04-24-2015, 02:01 PM   #35
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Nearly $500 for a set of injectors is "reasonably priced"?
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Old 04-24-2015, 04:04 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
The rx8 injectors are only better than ev1 junk. There are so many better options out there now. Oh well, enjoy the hot restart injector heatsoak.
If the RX-8 injectors are known for hot restart injector heatsoak, why not give me the heads-up when I first brought them up?

Methinks we need a new - or at least updated - FAQ.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
370cc is rather small for your power goals. Based on personal experience, 420-440cc would be adequate with some headroom, albeit with a relatively small amount of growth potential.
Yep, I bought the 420cc injectors. I don't need growth potential, as my goal seems to be inside their safe capacity. Let's leave this one for now; I'm going to have to remove them annually, so if I change my mind, I can upgrade then... or whenever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Thing is, these Injector Dynamics injectors do in fact seem to be magical. I've heard, anecdotally, that the pintles are made from unicorn horn. And it's not like they're grinding 'em up and re-casting them; an entire horn is mounted on a lathe and cut down to make each individual injector- that's commitment to quality.
That sounds kind of hokey. What in the world are they using for cutting bits?
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Old 04-24-2015, 04:08 PM   #37
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Leprechaun boogers.

But seriously, I told you to get ev14's and you didn't.

I really was actually helping you, not sure how much more "heads up" I coulda given.

The rx8's are not bad, at least they're better than some ancient ev1 rx7 injectors, but they do have that restart issue that we've all discussed time and time again on here. Not a deal breaker, but not great. The stockers actually do the same thing, as it's basically the same injector just a little smaller.
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Old 04-25-2015, 09:41 AM   #38
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Quote:
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Nearly $500 for a set of injectors is "reasonably priced"?
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Old 04-27-2015, 03:44 PM   #39
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The standard intarwebz disclaimer: My tone here is casual, not confrontational.

Quote:
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I told you to get ev14's and you didn't.

I really was actually helping you, not sure how much more "heads up" I coulda given.
The "heads up" I mean would be having told me about this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
[The RX-8 injectors] do have that restart issue that we've all discussed time and time again on here.
...which I didn't know about until you mentioned it.

The struggle I'm having with this build is that the FAQ is spinning with injectors that I'm told I don't want and EM "aids" that I'm told I don't want, and that half of the direction I'm getting reads like Clarkson shouting "POWAHHHHH!!!" which is outside my scope, all while the Spoon-Fed Eggplant Police are looming.

Now, I'm not asking anyone to do all my work. I've been pounding the Search function, and I'm trying to accumulate as much information about what's bad, what's good and what's good enough, as well as who knows what they're talking about and who's talking just to hear themselves.

With everything I read about the RX-8 injectors (direct fit, reasonably recent product, fits my flow needs, good price cleaned and matched), they sure looked like a good way to go. nigelt's injectors, without trying to discredit them, are plenty over my flow demands, and they cost a good share more (and are increasing now and then). With no real reason for me to pay more for additional capacity, why would I? This is where you come in.

That said, I've got paid versions of TunerStudio and MegaLogViewer on my laptop, and I'm trying to settle on a location for the wideband gauge. It's a challenge to plant the thing discreetly - desirable, what with the car being perpetually unlocked because softtop and all. Thinking I'll just go A-pillar.
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Old 04-27-2015, 04:03 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LetItSnow View Post
With no real reason for me to pay more for additional capacity, why would I? This is where you come in.
You're paying for the newer technology more than you're paying for capacity.
That said, I've got paid versions of TunerStudio and MegaLogViewer on my laptop, and I'm trying to settle on a location for the wideband gauge. It's a challenge to plant the thing discreetly - desirable, what with the car being perpetually unlocked because softtop and all. Thinking I'll just go A-pillar.
I use a single din head unit, and stick the gauges into the "other" din using a mounting plate. works pretty good and not tacky
there
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