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Old 10-13-2016, 07:57 PM   #381
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While I agree that, and it's proven by Harvard studies, that most teachers both in undergrad and grad school tend to have the lowest test scores and entry scores of nearly every profession/major.

But the better students pick better paying jobs. Perhaps if the standards and pay for teachers were higher we would see a corresponding jump in quality. Some of the best entrepreneurs in our society dropped out of college...

I graduated OSU with a Journalism degree in Dec 2005. The starting salary for teacher in OK was something like $28,325 per year. I went to State Farm and became a Claim Rep for nearly $10k more per year. Changed careers and within 5 years was making double of what a teacher with 5 years of experience would make.

What would be my incentive to become a teacher? "For the children?" That ain't cutting it. Go look at the Finnish model.

It's amazing to me that people who are so influential on a student's success are regarded so poorly and make less than the Assisant Manager at a Rent-A-Center........and we wonder why we're something like 34th in Math and Science education in the world.
If you paid teachers more and valued teaching and education more, it would become more competitive to enter the field. Test scores would go up. If you have low wages for a job that has a relatively high educational requirement, who do you expect to recruit when there's no competition?
Also, I haven't seen any studies suggesting high test scores are indicative of low teaching ability.

I'm in med school. The kids that want to be surgeons bust their asses far harder because they have to score higher on the boards to be competitive. The folks that want to do primary care have a lower barrier of entry into the field and tend to enjoy their time in school a bit more. I wouldn't say they're worse doctors, they just want to do something different.

If teaching became a $100k a year profession tomorrow, you'd attract a lot of folks that want to be teachers but didn't want the low salaries for the amount of education required. Want proof? Why are the teachers in higher income school districts better? Why do the kids do better there?
Higher barrier of entry means you have to be a better candidate to get in the door.
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Old 10-13-2016, 08:06 PM   #382
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The problem isn't the teachers, it's the students. The whole system is geared toward keeping poor people poor and dependent on the gov't.

Fail out of HS? No big deal, we'll still give you health care, food, housing. If you don't need to work for anything, how much respect do you have for those who do work? How much do you care about anything if it hasn't cost you any investment of time or effort?

And if you don't need to spend any time or energy to work, you have plenty of time to protest imagined slights that really don't have anything to do with your life.
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Old 10-13-2016, 08:06 PM   #383
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What do you call the student that graduated at the bottom of their med school class....



A doctor.
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Old 10-13-2016, 08:17 PM   #384
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The problem isn't the teachers, it's the students. The whole system is geared toward keeping poor people poor and dependent on the gov't.

Fail out of HS? No big deal, we'll still give you health care, food, housing. If you don't need to work for anything, how much respect do you have for those who do work? How much do you care about anything if it hasn't cost you any investment of time or effort?

And if you don't need to spend any time or energy to work, you have plenty of time to protest imagined slights that really don't have anything to do with your life.

You're conflating your meme's and lumping in poverty, SJW's, and all sorts of fun bits together. You realize that benefits also go to folks that used to work in coal mines in west virginia and the like where industry completely jumped ship and left those people behind. But now it's obviously their fault, not the fault of the folks that got filthy rich in the process. And the folks with toxic water who saw their home values plummet overnight so whatever theoretical equity they had vanished without a shred of a trace. The statistically insignificant are always the easiest to turn into examples.

I definitely enjoy reading the opinions of folks who think that the history of racism in America ended with slavery...

I'm totally for safety net programs, but I think they should be tied to some sort of vocational or educational programs for those that are able bodied enough to do so. Or atleast they should be incentives to do so that make the base minimum paltry in comparison.

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What do you call the student that graduated at the bottom of their med school class....


A doctor.
It's not the best example because clearly those in grad school have proven themselves academically somewhat anyway, but I'm just saying there's a lot of self selection at play that's easy to overlook.
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Old 10-13-2016, 08:17 PM   #385
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Want proof? Why are the teachers in higher income school districts better? Why do the kids do better there?
The teachers in higher income school districts might be somewhat better, but the largest factor in the kids doing better is cultural. They come from whole families. Their families have expectations. They have expectations of themselves. Immigrants, especially from Asia and the Subcontinent, do exceptionally well even if they don't live in Beverly Hills. Likewise, some people born with a silver spoon do exceptionally poorly.

And, well, there's genetics. Smart people tend to have smart kids. Dumb people . . . . Like it or not, traits are often inherited.
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Old 10-13-2016, 08:23 PM   #386
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The teachers in higher income school districts might be somewhat better, but the largest factor in the kids doing better is cultural. They come from whole families. Their families have expectations. They have expectations of themselves. Immigrants, especially from Asia and the Subcontinent, do exceptionally well even if they don't live in Beverly Hills. Likewise, some people born with a silver spoon do exceptionally poorly.

And, well, there's genetics. Smart people tend to have smart kids. Dumb people . . . . Like it or not, traits are often inherited.
Ah yes, I totally forgot that intelligence was a mendelian trait.

Please, continue. Will you follow up with a lesson on phrenology?

When you say they come from whole families, which families are you referring to that aren't 'whole' in comparison. What factors are at play to make them not whole?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you were talking about african american families, since those are often used as examples of these things with missing parent figures, etc? I'm guessing for profit prisons, the difference in application of the justice system, and the way police departments are often funded have nothing to do with why that might be so? Also, I want to be clear that I'm not implying any sort of racial undertones to what you said. African americans are just often used as the typical example in the context, so I figured I'd just go for it since it was convenient.

Asians are not a model minority. The sociocultural history of that trope is pretty interesting, but I digress. It's difficult as hell to immigrate here if you're not in some sort of skilled/desired field. That comes with higher incomes for immigrants, as well as the schools etc that come along with it.
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Old 10-13-2016, 11:39 PM   #387
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Education will improve when there is no longer a teacher's union, and instead there is a student's union.

Education will improve when there are parents that have time to care about the success of their students - generally that takes two parents and a number of children that they can support on their own 40 hour (or less) incomes.

Education will improve when parents are no longer ashamed of whooping the living **** out of their kids for being little ******** - and when vice principals are again allowed to do the same.

Education will improve when boys can act like boys in school and not fear reprisal.

We could go on and on...

Teachers salaries will only improve when children stop being taught to follow their dreams. Every teacher was a child that was following their dreams, along with half of the other children. The smart ones made economically sound decisions to not become teachers; the other 100 are fighting for 2 jobs/year and undercutting each other to appear more attractive, that way they can get into the teachers union and have a guaranteed job and pension for 30 years, no matter how bad they screw up at the education piece.
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Old 10-14-2016, 09:17 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
If you paid teachers more and valued teaching and education more, it would become more competitive to enter the field. Test scores would go up. If you have low wages for a job that has a relatively high educational requirement, who do you expect to recruit when there's no competition?
the base salary for a teacher in my county is $47,516.

that's for 194 days of employment, and 0 years of experience.

That's $245 a day for reading out of an instruction manual.

I'm sorry, but that's a pretty good deal imho. Considering most people out of school work a 260 day-schedule, and have a much lower base salary, teachers are MUCH better off than most and have a mandatory pay increase with each each of employment. You're hard-pressed to get even a 1% raise each year in private industry.




More and more and more and more and more money is dumped into education each year and nothing has improved. What makes you think dumping more and more and more and more money into education (specially teacher's salaries) will suddenly now work? That's what for-profit colleges are for. k-12 teachers read out of a book and teach about gender identification and feelings -- there's no need to pay these teachers higher salaries. anyone should be able to teach a kid how to add 1 + 1.

Last edited by Braineack; 10-14-2016 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 10-14-2016, 10:27 AM   #389
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the base salary for a teacher in my county is $47,516.

that's for 194 days of employment, and 0 years of experience.

That's $245 a day for reading out of an instruction manual.

I'm sorry, but that's a pretty good deal imo.
You forgot to mention the pension which usually has an inflation adjusted value of about $1MM based on payouts. Oh and govt. benefits with almost 100% job security. I think teachers do just fine if you really factor in their total compensation.

As has been pointed out already in this thread, the biggest factor which determines student success is parental involvement. There are many conflating factors that cause poor family support in poor communities. Some of it is cultural, some of it is systemic class discrimination, some of it is poverty itself. None of these problems are simple to fully explore or fix.
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Old 10-14-2016, 11:15 AM   #390
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Ah yes, I totally forgot that intelligence was a mendelian trait.
Ah, well that explains part of the problem. (Assuming you're serious about not knowing that.)

Intellectual capacity, like height, hair color, and predisposition to disorders such as Alzheimer's, sickle cell disease and diabetes, has a strong hereditary factor. There's a sufficiently large body of evidence (including some gathered by non-**** researchers) that this doesn't even merit debate.

The environment in which a child is reared also plays a huge role in how their intellectual capacity develops into actual behavior and intelligence. And, again, there is a strong correlation between the quality of a child's early development environment and the social / intellectual status of the parent(s). A child raised by literate, well-educated parents who encourage reading, artistic expression, and caring socialization will develop more positive attributes (including academic performance) then one raised in a crack house. For a particularly extreme example of this, see the story of Genie the "feral child" Genie (feral child | Psychology Wiki )
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Old 10-14-2016, 11:18 AM   #391
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In my personal experience intelligence has no connection to hard work and drive for success.

I know some borderline morons, who worked very hard in school and put themselves in a successful job supporting their family.

Me on the other hand screwed off because my brain worked differently. And I could pass a test after studying for an hour, when they spent 12 hours on it.

Until the parents rise out of poverty, the children never will. And that sucks, because you don't get to pick your parents.
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Old 10-14-2016, 11:35 AM   #392
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...I definitely enjoy reading the opinions of folks who think that the history of racism in America ended with slavery...
I think it's cute how some people act like blacks are the only ones who face discrimination.













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Old 10-14-2016, 12:28 PM   #393
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I'm pretty sure the white male is the #1 class discriminated against by the government - A.K.A. "we the people"

I'm also pretty sure that the white male is far from the #1 discriminatory class of society.

I'd like to revisit my earlier arguments on education:
Education will improve when China allows for full float of the Yuan valuation.
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Old 10-14-2016, 03:11 PM   #394
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sometimes i love the internet.




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Old 10-14-2016, 03:28 PM   #395
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After watching that video I can tell that every little ******* spoiled brat in that room has grown privileged. You don't become SJW otherwise.
you need to have mandatory service.
I know that's what sorting teenagers minds in our country, including the problematic ones.
We grow up to be men and women responsible for their own lives.
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Old 10-14-2016, 03:38 PM   #396
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its ironic that the privileged babies tell others to check their privileged.

there's a song that i like that's relevant:

Quote:
It's been a long time
Now it's time to get your bubble burst
Things are bad enough in this world
Why do you have to make them worse?
Day after day, you just gotta get it

So sick and tired of your bitching and complaining
So long you've been oppressed while others lives are gaining
Want reparations, you're needy and deserving
Can't understand why some are served while you're doing the serving
Anything but responsibility

Where's my slice?
I want more than equal rights
I want everything for free!

You waste your time concerned with what others are earning
You want a revolution to start the tables turning
A demonstration to make a better nation
We'll spend the day protesting all the problems that we're facing
Anything but face reality

Where's my slice?
I want more than equal rights
I want everything for free!

Your brilliant theory
How the world owes you a living
You'll take away from others
The things they should be giving
They own the pie and you want your share
Whoever told you life was fair?
You were dealt your hand - now play it


Where's my slice?
I want more than equal rights
I want everything for free!
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Old 10-14-2016, 04:56 PM   #397
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You don't even know me.
I gave three years of my life to my country. And I'm doing reserves until the age of 40.
I was given an M16 at the age of 18.
You can't call me a privileged baby.
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Old 10-14-2016, 05:32 PM   #398
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You were given an M16? Now thats privileged. Didn't even have to earn it?

/sarcasm
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Old 10-14-2016, 06:26 PM   #399
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You were given an M16? Now thats privileged. Didn't even have to earn it?

/sarcasm
Now THAT's funny!
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Old 10-18-2016, 08:30 AM   #400
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https://milo.yiannopoulos.net/2016/1...lavored-treat/

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