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Old 05-24-2012, 02:04 PM   #2101
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God i love reading stories from CA:

Ban on plastic bags at L.A. markets is approved
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...-approved.html
I must say that I read this with some amusement.

After becoming a Trader Joe's convert several months ago on the basis of an outstanding bread recommendation in the Cheese Wheel thread, I discovered that they have a very innovative bagging policy which effectively bridges the gap between conventional reusable bags (eg, cloth bags costing 99 cents) and disposable plastic bags.

TJs uses very sturdy paper bags, complete with handles. The bags are given free just like at any other supermarket, however there seems to be a social contract in which you are expected to bring your bags back for re-use when you return. When you enter the store, you simply place the bag(s) into the bottom of your basket or cart, such that they are the last thing to come out when you're at the checkout line. The clerk then re-fills your bag(s), and will automatically provide an additional bag or two if you didn't bring enough, or if one of your bags is worn beyond repair.

At any rate, I've found this a very easy system to accommodate. My TJ's bag lives behind the driver's seat of my car at all times. When I get home and unpack groceries, I re-fold it and stick it next to my keys and wallet, and the next morning it goes right back into the car. I've been using the same paper bag continuously for about three months now, and it has been holding up remarkably well. On the last trip, it suffered a minor fault caused by a 1/2 gal milk carton, however this was easily remedied, though ironically, with a bit of plastic tape.



So I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. It's become obvious to me that plastic bags are not necessary, and that paper bags can provide even better performance when properly constructed.

So yeah- not sure what the big deal is about banning plastic bags. Ban 'em all.
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:09 PM   #2102
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You want to ban plastic bags because you hate trees.
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:39 PM   #2103
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Now that they are all using paper instead of plastic in CA, we will next hear more from these nauseating guys:

http://www.ted.com/talks/joe_smith_h...per_towel.html
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:46 PM   #2104
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You want to ban plastic bags because you hate trees.
I only hate one specific tree. And maybe hate is too strong a word. I have a grudge against it.

But, the bag is made in the US from 100% recycled material, rather than from imported petroleum, so it seems like kind of a win / win scenario.

Based on the present wear patterns, I expect that I should get at least another 3 or 4 months of use out of the bag. The handles have suffered no degradation at all, and while the paper at the bottom is starting to soften a bit, it hasn't torn and still retains a proper crease when folded.

I expect that someone, somewhere, has probably done an impact study on the cost / benefit ratio (both environmental and economic) of using one paper bag in lieu of 30-40 plastic bags. The amount of energy and material required to produce a paper bag is probably much greater than a plastic bag, but amortized over the life of the bag, I would suspect that the energy equation is about even. That would bring it down to simply a question of sustainable vs. non-sustainable materials input (recycled paper vs. imported oil), and the post-consumer disposal problem (even if simply thrown away, a paper bag will decompose into nothing. Plastic is forever.)
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:46 PM   #2105
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but i dont care about that ----.
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Old 05-24-2012, 02:54 PM   #2106
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http://www.reuseit.com/learn-more/my...r-than-plastic

http://www.interplas.com/packaging-e...e-plastic-bags

http://earth911.com/recycling/paper/...wn-paper-bags/

Reasonable conclusions:

1. Promote the use of cloth bags for their superior environmental profile.
2. Let the market decide between paper or plastic, given the fact that neither is vastly superior environmentally speaking.

Unreasonable conclusions.

1. Use the force of law to punish plastic bag makers, plastic bag recyclers, and consumer who prefers plastic bags, while rewarding paper bag makers and paper bag recyclers, and assuaging the environtmental guilt of ill-informed consumers.



EDIT: I used my 4,000 post for that? *sigh*
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Old 05-24-2012, 03:05 PM   #2107
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i like saving plastic bags to use to scoop poo into.

i ALSO LIKE TO HORDE THEM!

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Old 05-24-2012, 03:49 PM   #2108
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Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
20 years ago I would agree with you completely. Back then, paper grocery bags were thin, flimsy things which were typically used in a grocery-carrying capacity only once, and then resigned to use in children's art projects or as cat toys.


The key point here is that this is not a matter of paper versus plastic. This is about using heavy-duty paper bags with handles as a step towards eliminating the concept of single-use bags altogether, regardless of what material they are constructed from.

If a major grocery chain wants to create a plastic bag which is suitable for multiple uses, I welcome them to start giving them away to their customers for free. If they find that their customers then start re-using the bags over and over, then I will call that a win.

Thus far, TJ's is the only chain to have actually deployed a free, ruggedized, multiple-use bag on a large scale, and it happens to be made from recycled paper. They've been doing this for nearly 20 years, so I assume that they must have found it to be successful, at least among the demographic which forms their primary customer base. (eg: as a matter of broad generalization, I would expect a much lower rate of conformity from the customers of Wal-Mart of 7-11.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
2. Let the market decide between paper or plastic, given the fact that neither is vastly superior environmentally speaking.
Ideally, I'd prefer to let the market decide whether or not I need to conform to CARB regulations and have a bi-annual emissions test.

But we all know that some expectations are not reasonable.




Quote:
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i like saving plastic bags to use to scoop poo into.

i ALSO LIKE TO HORDE THEM!
So Hustler has more poop than he can deal with, and Braineack can't seem to get enough of it.

I recommend that y'all arrange for a poop-sharing system which will be mutually beneficial.
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Old 05-24-2012, 11:22 PM   #2109
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Quote:
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So Hustler has more poop than he can deal with
I was under the impression the issue was not the quantity, but the plasticity (or lack thereof).
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Old 05-25-2012, 12:11 AM   #2110
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I guess the main thing is.. how many people do u see reusing bags? For example shopping bags.. they put your stuff in it, you take it home, then you toss it out that same day or even a use later.
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Old 05-25-2012, 12:46 AM   #2111
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I'm so awfully glad that the government is paying such close attention to plastic bags while Rome burns around them. California is so in debt that the joke is we're already living in Obama's second term.

FWIW, I prefer the plastic bags. We recycle them as well as use them for our dog clean-up. Paper is fine too, but they take about 10x as much energy to make and/or recycle.

It's disconcerting to think that companies may go out of business from the lobby efforts of the greenies--well meaning or not. After all, 40,000 timber jobs were lost before they figured out the Spotted owl was being killed not by the lumber industry, but they their bigger cousins the Barred owl.

The re-useable bags bother me. I don't like the idea of bringing home raw food, chicken, meat and such in these bags and then using them the next day for something else. Unsanitary. My wife uses them, but not me.
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Old 05-25-2012, 10:25 AM   #2112
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Old 05-25-2012, 10:35 AM   #2113
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So if no plastic bags, what do you scoop your kitty litter into?
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Old 05-25-2012, 11:49 AM   #2114
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So if no plastic bags, what do you scoop your kitty litter into?

you go to the store and buy small 4-gallon trash bags. or don't live in one of the worst cities in the world.
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Old 05-25-2012, 11:58 AM   #2115
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So instead of reusing something, I get to buy more stuff and throw it away. Awesome SF! Sustainability!
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Old 05-25-2012, 12:02 PM   #2116
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i do understand that plastic bags cause a lot of waste, but i dont like the idea of banning things. stores can simply not offer them to begin with if they deem, like trader joes.
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:55 PM   #2117
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http://www.buzzfeed.com/gavon/a-user...h-barack-obama

Barry thanked his drug dealer in his high school yearbook. how thoughtful.
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Old 05-25-2012, 05:21 PM   #2118
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Quote:
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but i dont like the idea of banning things.
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Old 05-27-2012, 06:37 AM   #2119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
but i dont like the idea of banning things.

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Old 05-27-2012, 07:02 AM   #2120
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I am SO confused what kind of bag to put my dog poop in now. I sure hope the government makes a decision for me, SOON!

A couple of years ago the California legislature considered a ban on dark colored cars--extra heat means extra A/C and extra energy, you know. Unfortunately they punted, and I'm still waiting to find out what color Volt I need to buy next.

Thank Gawd I know what light bulb to use.
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