The Current Events, News, and Politics Thread
12-08-2011, 03:40 PM
#541
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did you read this:
and this:
Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation “Fast and Furious” to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.
In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the “big fish.” But ATF whistleblowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called “gunwalking,” and it put thousands of weapons on the street. Many were used in violent crimes in Mexico. Two were found at the murder scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.
ATF officials didn’t intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called “Demand Letter 3″. That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or “long guns.” Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.
On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF’s Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:
This revelation angers gun rights advocates. Larry Keane, a spokesman for National Shooting Sports Foundation, a gun industry trade group, calls the discussion of Fast and Furious to argue for Demand Letter 3 “disappointing and ironic.” Keane says it’s “deeply troubling” if sales made by gun dealers “voluntarily cooperating with ATF’s flawed ‘Operation Fast & Furious’ were going to be used by some individuals within ATF to justify imposing a multiple sales reporting requirement for rifles.”
The Gun Dealers’ Quandary
Several gun dealers who cooperated with ATF told CBS News and Congressional investigators they only went through with suspicious sales because ATF asked them to.
Sometimes it was against the gun dealer’s own best judgment...
In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the “big fish.” But ATF whistleblowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called “gunwalking,” and it put thousands of weapons on the street. Many were used in violent crimes in Mexico. Two were found at the murder scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.
ATF officials didn’t intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called “Demand Letter 3″. That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or “long guns.” Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.
On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF’s Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:
“Bill – can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks.”
On Jan. 4, 2011, as ATF prepared a press conference to announce arrests in Fast and Furious, Newell saw it as “(A)nother time to address Multiple Sale on Long Guns issue.” And a day after the press conference, Chait emailed Newell: “Bill–well done yesterday… (I)n light of our request for Demand letter 3, this case could be a strong supporting factor if we can determine how many multiple sales of long guns occurred during the course of this case.”This revelation angers gun rights advocates. Larry Keane, a spokesman for National Shooting Sports Foundation, a gun industry trade group, calls the discussion of Fast and Furious to argue for Demand Letter 3 “disappointing and ironic.” Keane says it’s “deeply troubling” if sales made by gun dealers “voluntarily cooperating with ATF’s flawed ‘Operation Fast & Furious’ were going to be used by some individuals within ATF to justify imposing a multiple sales reporting requirement for rifles.”
The Gun Dealers’ Quandary
Several gun dealers who cooperated with ATF told CBS News and Congressional investigators they only went through with suspicious sales because ATF asked them to.
Sometimes it was against the gun dealer’s own best judgment...
and this:
He finally turned his attention to the Southwest border, i.e., the one the DOJ/ATF allowed 2,500 weapons to walk across. Here, DOJ’s “battle against gun violence” took center stage:
In recent years, the department has devoted specific resources to this fight and specifically, to addressing the unacceptable rate of illegal firearms trafficking from the United States to Mexico. Unfortunately, in the pursuit of that laudable goal, unacceptable tactics were adopted as part of Operation Fast and Furious. As I have repeatedly stated, allowing guns to walk, whether in this administration or the prior one, is wholly unacceptable. The use of this misguided tactic is inexcusable. It must never happen again. Soon after learning about the allegations raised by agents involved in Fast and Furious I took action designed to ensure accountability. In February I asked the department’s acting Inspector General to investigate the matter. And in early March I ordered that a directive be sent to law enforcement agents and prosecutors prohibiting such tactics.
I have a question: How did Holder address the “allegations” associated with gun walking in Fast and Furious in February if he didn’t know about Fast and Furious until mid-April? Remember, when he first gave testimony to Congress on May 3, he told Issa he had only known about Fast and Furious for a few weeks:On May 3rd Issa asked: “When did you first know about the program…called ‘Fast and Furious?”
Holder responded: “I’m not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks”
This exchange notwithstanding, Holder is now telling Congress about the actions he took in light of allegations about Fast and Furious in February and March. In fact, he specifically said he issued a directive in March against “such tactics” (i.e., gun walking) after the allegations of such tactics were made by ATF agents.
Holder responded: “I’m not sure of the exact date, but I probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks”
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12-08-2011, 03:42 PM
#542
So, the ATF is trying to expand it's power and justify it's own existence? ....
Sounds like a bureaucracy to me!
When the ATF is lyin' to our politicians about it, I think you are looking at the wrong place for retribution.
Sounds like a bureaucracy to me!
Originally Posted by Hustly
Good job White House. When is the impeachment
On November 8, 2011, Attorney General Eric Holder openly stated in Congressional testimony that the operation was "flawed in its concept and flawed in its execution," and he furthermore stated that his office had inaccurately described the program in previous letters sent to Congress.
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12-08-2011, 03:47 PM
#543
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Yeah, I read it. I've been following this story since early 2011 when only Laura Ingram would discuss it on the radio. Its pretty heinous to consider that we're setting traps and killing our own people to pass laws the public is not asking for. I guess that's what we call "Chicago style politics".
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12-08-2011, 03:52 PM
#544
Yeah, I read it. I've been following this story since early 2011 when only Laura Ingram would discuss it on the radio. Its pretty heinous to consider that we're setting traps and killing our own people to pass laws the public is not asking for. I guess that's what we call "Chicago style politics".
Again, when the ATF and even our ******* Attorney General are lying to congress and the white house about what is going on, in order to try for a power grab and justify their existence... What does that have to do with Chicago style politics, other than a cheap shot at Obama, who Eric Holder admitted he lied to about Fast and Furious?
I mean, I agree with your sentiment up to the last sentence. We should be demanding blood - but asking for (insert congressman/white house member here)'s head when they were being lied to?
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12-08-2011, 04:01 PM
#545
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Hustly, hustly, hustly.... (Uh oh, I called his name 3 times!)
Again, when the ATF and even our ******* Attorney General are lying to congress and the white house about what is going on, in order to try for a power grab and justify their existence... What does that have to do with Chicago style politics, other than a cheap shot at Obama, who Eric Holder admitted he lied to about Fast and Furious?
I mean, I agree with your sentiment up to the last sentence. We should be demanding blood - but asking for (insert congressman/white house member here)'s head when they were being lied to?
Again, when the ATF and even our ******* Attorney General are lying to congress and the white house about what is going on, in order to try for a power grab and justify their existence... What does that have to do with Chicago style politics, other than a cheap shot at Obama, who Eric Holder admitted he lied to about Fast and Furious?
I mean, I agree with your sentiment up to the last sentence. We should be demanding blood - but asking for (insert congressman/white house member here)'s head when they were being lied to?
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12-08-2011, 05:02 PM
#547
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I hate to derail the F&F tangent because the whole situation is heinous on so many levels it does deserve attention and discussion, buuuuuut...
Originally Posted by Edward Harrison
Here are a few code words that you will often see in economic writing followed by their true meaning. The code word is a dog whistle. It acts like an emotional marker only for those attuned to the underlying ‘moral’ issues implied by the code. While you may agree with the logical framework behind the code word, the purpose in using the code is to influence emotion instead of logic. When I talk about ‘economics as a morality play’ this is what I am referring to.
Politics is not the only place where you will hear dog whistles.
The code is in parentheses.
■PIGS/PIIGS = the eurozone periphery aka Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain and sometimes including Ireland (who are shameful debtors too lazy to work hard to actually pay for the things they buy, looking to free-ride on the euro zone)
■Technocrat = unelected (and therefore illegitimate) policy maker (from elite institutions isolated from the mainstream and middle classes)
■Big Government = activist government policy (used to increase the size and scope of government to redistribute wealth illegitimately by government confiscation)
■Bankster = high level financial services executive (who acts like a mob-boss Gangster in ripping off ordinary folks as used by libertarian Murray Rothbard in Right Wing Populism in 1992 but now used more widely)
■Anschluss economics = economic power play (usually by Germany, harkening back to the Third Reich and the German attempt to dominate Europe militarily)
■Hippie = (unreasonable and dangerous) Occupy Wall Street protester (with no agenda due to economic ignorance)
■Deficit terrorist = someone who sees fiscal deficit as a negative aka a deficit hawk (who acts like a terrorist in forcing pro-cyclical cuts that disproportionately affect the poor, middle and working classes)
■Trickle down economics = supply-side economics that reduces regulation and lowers income taxes and capital gains taxes (in order to give kleptocrats a free hand in stealing legally)
■Oligarchs = Bankers and corporations (who act as unelected policy makers, pushing policies that favour themselves through their lobbying of government)
■Elites = those who have either attended a highly regarded educational institution or work in a well regarded corporation in policy making or policy influencing role (and who live in an ivory tower separated that sets them apart ordinary people and causes them to make bad policy decisions)
All of these terms are morality plays used to influence emotion rather than speak from a voice of reason. Whenever you see them, you should ALWAYS be suspicious regardless of context or source.
I will update this list over time as I think of more words. So refer back to it.
P.S. – I try to avoid these words. But they are insidious. Sometimes they creep in.
Updates
■Morality play = an appeal to philosophy and morality in an economic or political argument (that should somehow be seen as illegitimate and inappropriate as if morality plays no role in the economy)
Politics is not the only place where you will hear dog whistles.
The code is in parentheses.
■PIGS/PIIGS = the eurozone periphery aka Portugal, Italy, Greece and Spain and sometimes including Ireland (who are shameful debtors too lazy to work hard to actually pay for the things they buy, looking to free-ride on the euro zone)
■Technocrat = unelected (and therefore illegitimate) policy maker (from elite institutions isolated from the mainstream and middle classes)
■Big Government = activist government policy (used to increase the size and scope of government to redistribute wealth illegitimately by government confiscation)
■Bankster = high level financial services executive (who acts like a mob-boss Gangster in ripping off ordinary folks as used by libertarian Murray Rothbard in Right Wing Populism in 1992 but now used more widely)
■Anschluss economics = economic power play (usually by Germany, harkening back to the Third Reich and the German attempt to dominate Europe militarily)
■Hippie = (unreasonable and dangerous) Occupy Wall Street protester (with no agenda due to economic ignorance)
■Deficit terrorist = someone who sees fiscal deficit as a negative aka a deficit hawk (who acts like a terrorist in forcing pro-cyclical cuts that disproportionately affect the poor, middle and working classes)
■Trickle down economics = supply-side economics that reduces regulation and lowers income taxes and capital gains taxes (in order to give kleptocrats a free hand in stealing legally)
■Oligarchs = Bankers and corporations (who act as unelected policy makers, pushing policies that favour themselves through their lobbying of government)
■Elites = those who have either attended a highly regarded educational institution or work in a well regarded corporation in policy making or policy influencing role (and who live in an ivory tower separated that sets them apart ordinary people and causes them to make bad policy decisions)
All of these terms are morality plays used to influence emotion rather than speak from a voice of reason. Whenever you see them, you should ALWAYS be suspicious regardless of context or source.
I will update this list over time as I think of more words. So refer back to it.
P.S. – I try to avoid these words. But they are insidious. Sometimes they creep in.
Updates
■Morality play = an appeal to philosophy and morality in an economic or political argument (that should somehow be seen as illegitimate and inappropriate as if morality plays no role in the economy)
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12-09-2011, 06:41 AM
#550
...does not mention the WH or AG Holder directly, then I think the blame needs to land squarely on ATF's goons. Sure, we can yell at Holder for approving this operation at all, but his predecessor ran the same operation for years in the Bush era, so there's that. The ATF goons implicated here need to be shown the door, and then possibly to jail if they broke a law in the process.
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12-10-2011, 12:48 AM
#557
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"Don't ask, don't tell worked fine" **** him. What is the goddamn deal with these Christian holy warrior politicians sticking their ******* noses in everyone's business. What does he have against gays serving their country openly? What a ******* piece of **** bigot. This is exactly why I don't dabble in politics, because underneath their bullshit, they are all the same. Until an intelligent, non-theist candidate pops up, I won't voting. I'm not voting for bigoted faith driven crooks.
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12-10-2011, 02:07 AM
#558
"Don't ask, don't tell worked fine" **** him. What is the goddamn deal with these Christian holy warrior politicians sticking their ******* noses in everyone's business. What does he have against gays serving their country openly? What a ******* piece of **** bigot. This is exactly why I don't dabble in politics, because underneath their bullshit, they are all the same. Until an intelligent, non-theist candidate pops up, I won't voting. I'm not voting for bigoted faith driven crooks.
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12-10-2011, 08:10 AM
#559
ok so on topic with the religion thing
"I have my standards, but I shouldn't have to impose my standards on others" -Dr. Ron Paul
here is a bible verse that most christians seem to ignore as most christians like to see biblical sins outlawed. That is in direct contrast with the bible as the bible clearly states (imo) just because something is a sin does not mean you should outlaw it. There is ALOT of heretic ideas in mainstream christianity
Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
I fail to understand why I never see athiests pointing this bible verse out to christians. Perhaps they are too proud to open up that book and look at it for themselves to see if mainstream christian ideals are actually biblical.
"I have my standards, but I shouldn't have to impose my standards on others" -Dr. Ron Paul
here is a bible verse that most christians seem to ignore as most christians like to see biblical sins outlawed. That is in direct contrast with the bible as the bible clearly states (imo) just because something is a sin does not mean you should outlaw it. There is ALOT of heretic ideas in mainstream christianity
Revelation 22:11
He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
I fail to understand why I never see athiests pointing this bible verse out to christians. Perhaps they are too proud to open up that book and look at it for themselves to see if mainstream christian ideals are actually biblical.
Last edited by jared8783; 12-10-2011 at 08:23 AM.
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