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Old 04-06-2016, 08:58 AM   #5961
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I still don't understand why you care if someone if paying taxes or not.

This one individual pays more in taxes and gives away more income in a single year than you ever will in over 100 lifetimes.

I'm also willing to beat he's not getting much back out of the system he's paying for.

You act like if he doesn't pay his taxes, you will be directly affected in some way. You think it's not fair that he can get away with finding loopholes. Meanwhile, you hardly pay into the system and probably benefit more out of it.


3% of all tax returns filled to the IRS account for over 50% of all the income collected.

That's an interesting number, because 3% is the average tax rate of the Bottom 50%.

more fun with numbers:

90% of the population only account for 30% of the tax burden. Talk about Loopholes! Maybe we should do something to make these numbers more "fair"?

47% of the population pays nothing at all. Unfair! Loopholes! Corporate scum!

The highest earners of the tax code pays an additional 1% to medicare -- something they'll NEVER use. Much Fairness!


This is how I picture you when you talk about mitt romney's taxes:











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Old 04-06-2016, 09:38 AM   #5962
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The lack of images in dis thread dough...

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Old 04-06-2016, 09:45 AM   #5963
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But 65% do by your number. And that's a larger number.

I don't trust any of the proposed "flat tax /alternative tax" groups BTW.
Why? Afraid if the tax code isn't used for social engineering you will no longer benefit they way you currently do? (Mortgage deductions, breaks for rearing children, etc)

Go actually read up on the FairTax (not a flat tax) and then explain why you don't trust it.

Especially compared to the 70,000+ page IRS tax code.
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Old 04-06-2016, 09:52 AM   #5964
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But when turbo tax says I have some obscure deduction I can collect on, it's so fun!
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Old 04-06-2016, 11:07 AM   #5965
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Originally Posted by cordycord View Post
So if you're adding $42 BILLION to the money supply monthly, for years, that would be the text book definition of inflation. It would mean that the value of the dollar would go down, and yet the stock value in dollars could actually go up! So how much stock market value is just the illusory pumping of FED money into the system?
With regard to the question asked in the last sentence: none at all.

The trading of securities, and the money created therein, is 100% private commerce. Sure, the Securities & Exchange Commission regulates stock trading, but their mandate is to prevent fraud, not to set monetary policy.

Wealth creation in the stock market occurs simply when a large group of investors collectively say "We believe that the value of this stock is greater today than it was yesterday, and we are therefore willing to pay more to acquire it." People get excited about some an earnings forecast from some random tech company? Boom! A billion dollars worth of potential money just got created without any input from the Federal government whatsoever. Some random automaker admits to cheating on safety & emissions tests? Boom! A billion dollars worth of potential money just vanished from existence.

Of course, no *actual* money is being created or destroyed. That valuation doesn't actually become realized until someone buys or sells the stock in question. And when they do that, real money changes hands, of which there is a finite supply. And it simply goes from Party A to Party B, with a commission being extracted in the middle to pay Party C which facilitated the transaction. None of that money is ever seen by either the company whose stock is being traded, nor by the government. Well, not until Party B pays their capital gains tax on it.

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Old 04-06-2016, 11:22 AM   #5966
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With regard to the question asked in the last sentence: none at all.

The trading of securities, and the money created therein, is 100% private commerce. Sure, the Securities & Exchange Commission regulates stock trading, but their mandate is to prevent fraud, not to set monetary policy.

Wealth creation in the stock market occurs simply when a large group of investors collectively say "We believe that the value of this stock is greater today than it was yesterday, and we are therefore willing to pay more to acquire it." People get excited about some an earnings forecast from some random tech company? Boom! A billion dollars worth of potential money just got created without any input from the Federal government whatsoever. Some random automaker admits to cheating on safety & emissions tests? Boom! A billion dollars worth of potential money just vanished from existence.

Of course, no *actual* money is being created or destroyed. That valuation doesn't actually become realized until someone buys or sells the stock in question. And when they do that, real money changes hands, of which there is a finite supply. And it simply goes from Party A to Party B, with a commission being extracted in the middle to pay Party C which facilitated the transaction. None of that money is ever seen by either the company whose stock is being traded, nor by the government. Well, not until Party B pays their capital gains tax on it.

Actual money may not be printed, but it IS being added to the balance sheet. So if you're keeping score with dollar$ and the value of the dollar changes, doesn't that mean that the level of the stock market is going to change?

In other words, if the stock market was played with the same $100, the capitalization would always be $100, BUT each dollar would become more and more valuable and be able to buy more. Instead we have money pouring into the system, and it's not necessarily being earned.

It ends up as being a FED dollar that can be loaned to the market. The market has responded by issuing more stock (fake money) and taking loans at near zero interest. This hurts mom & pop, BUT if you're part of the Fascist "in" crowd, you make bucket-loads of money. Part of this booty is recycled in the form of PAC money. Hmmm, is that how this works?
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Old 04-06-2016, 12:16 PM   #5967
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Americans spend more on taxes than food, clothing, housing combined | Washington Examiner

"— If you include annual federal borrowing, which represents future taxes owed, Tax Freedom Day would occur 16 days later on May 10."

Last edited by cordycord; 04-06-2016 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 04-06-2016, 03:36 PM   #5968
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Why? Afraid if the tax code isn't used for social engineering you will no longer benefit they way you currently do? (Mortgage deductions, breaks for rearing children, etc)
Well I guess I should take out a couple mortgages now that you mention it! Given that I paid $54K+ in federal income and self-employment taxes I'm reasonably sure you didn't subsidize me with your taxes.

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Go actually read up on the FairTax (not a flat tax) and then explain why you don't trust it.
If you're you referring to the movement behind the Fair Tax Act (H.R. 25/S. 155), personally I think it's a pretty naive attempt at pulling the wool over the unsuspecting American voter into thinking he's going to finally "put it to the rich guy". I also have a pretty low confidence level that any of the 435 members of the House of Representatives, the 100 members of the Senate or the President, past present or future, has my best interest at heart.

Furthermore, I have even less confidence in the thousands of clerks, interns, lobbyists to actually write the regulations that would result from this legislation. Care to argue my point? The ACA, otherwise known as Obamacare should make my point. Best intended plans...

But explain to me how a "Prebate" isn't just another way of "Social Engineering" that you seem to hate?

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Especially compared to the 70,000+ page IRS tax code.
I'm one of those people who doesn't find it at all difficult to fill in a 2 page Form 1040 each April along with the supporting forms and schedules. You know I don't even need my business accountant to do it for me.
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Old 04-06-2016, 04:39 PM   #5969
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This hurts mom & pop, BUT if you're part of the Fascist "in" crowd, you make bucket-loads of money.
I agreed with everything you wrote right up until that point.

Securities trading is a completely free and open marketplace, with no barriers to entry beyond having internet access and a few dollars of free cash. Anyone who wishes to become part of the in-crowd may do so. And most everyone who has a 401k plan is already part of the crowd, whether they know it or not.

Why, and I ask this seriously, do you consider people who actively utilize the securities market to be fascists? Am I a fascist? I'm certainly not wealthy, but I do have a bit of play money in a Vanguard account, distributed across several ETFs.
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Old 04-06-2016, 04:43 PM   #5970
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
I agreed with everything you wrote right up until that point.

Securities trading is a completely free and open marketplace, with no barriers to entry beyond having internet access and a few dollars of free cash. Anyone who wishes to become part of the in-crowd may do so. And most everyone who has a 401k plan is already part of the crowd, whether they know it or not.

Why, and I ask this seriously, do you consider people who actively utilize the securities market to be fascists? Am I a fascist? I'm certainly not wealthy, but I do have a bit of play money in a Vanguard account, distributed across several ETFs.
I was thinking the exact same thing... curious how we are facist when we choose to invest (gamble) our money in this way.
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Old 04-06-2016, 08:22 PM   #5971
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The 47% of the population that receives the most in services pays ZEEERRRROOO for that privilege. Who has a loophole?
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Old 04-07-2016, 03:06 AM   #5972
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
I agreed with everything you wrote right up until that point.

Securities trading is a completely free and open marketplace, with no barriers to entry beyond having internet access and a few dollars of free cash. Anyone who wishes to become part of the in-crowd may do so. And most everyone who has a 401k plan is already part of the crowd, whether they know it or not.

Why, and I ask this seriously, do you consider people who actively utilize the securities market to be fascists? Am I a fascist? I'm certainly not wealthy, but I do have a bit of play money in a Vanguard account, distributed across several ETFs.
While there's no barrier to entry for the stock market, there is a barrier to entry for the deals that come along for the "too big to fail" banks. These and other large corporations that get on the government merry-go-round of paying lobbyists for favorable loopholes, and then reciprocating with PAC cash. That's what I'm talking about. You can't afford lobbyists. You can't afford (or even need) a room full of accountants so that you can work the 70,000 page tax system. But at a certain level it becomes profitable. And at that level a certain amount of payback is required. And when the corporations are forced into collusion, I call it fascism.

It's not necessarily that you can't play in the same pool, it's that you'll end up with the wet Mounds bar while these guys will have the rafts and the water guns.
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Old 04-07-2016, 03:09 AM   #5973
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The 47% of the population that receives the most in services pays ZEEERRRROOO for that privilege. Who has a loophole?
It's closer to 50% who don't pay Federal income tax. You then drop down to 40% of these non-payers that actually gets money BACK from the Feds.

How many states (including California) now have more people on welfare than have jobs?
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Old 04-07-2016, 09:54 AM   #5974
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While there's no barrier to entry for the stock market, there is a barrier to entry for the deals that come along for the "too big to fail" banks.
I'll stipulate.

How does that make people who participate in the securities market fascists?

Fascism is a political model which is characterized by a one-party state, centralized economic control, and the espousal of violence as a means to achieve social order. None of these things describe either modern corporate organization or the securities exchange markets as a whole.

It seems like you're fundamentally opposed to free-market capitalism as a whole, which is an odd perspective for a small business owner to have.




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It's not necessarily that you can't play in the same pool, it's that you'll end up with the wet Mounds bar while these guys will have the rafts and the water guns.
Ok.

Is this a problem?

The old axiom is that it takes money to make money. And objectively speaking, there's some truth to that. With regard to political action committees, it's true that money buys speech. But you'd rather that the first amendment be constrained such that it doesn't apply to rich people?



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It's closer to 50% who don't pay Federal income tax. You then drop down to 40% of these non-payers that actually gets money BACK from the Feds.
Again, true.

And again, how does that have anything at all to do with stock trading or corporate taxation? Raising corporate taxes above their present level will simply increase the number of individual taxpayers have have a net effective tax rate of zero or less.
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Old 04-07-2016, 10:17 AM   #5975
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cause we are talking about something you aren't?

we wanted to talk about individuals, you wanted to talk about corporations.
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Old 04-07-2016, 10:55 AM   #5976
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So, I haven't been here in awhile and thought it'd be fun to read some of this thread. I myself work for a living, so this election is of upmost importance to me.

No help from the government is needed to be successful, it only helps those that can't help themselves. If we continue to allow this type of mindset it will only further damage our economy. Government makes it hard to run a business, but easy as 1,2,3 to get "aid". I'm all for helping those that really need help, but its time to stop enabling.

People want immigrants out but forget a few things. Most importantly the construction industry. Who in the everloving **** do you think will build things? Not only that, think about the amount of additional tax dollars that would come in to OUR country, rather than foreign ones! More than enough to be an impact, thus resulting in a feasible lower tax for all of us.

To me, the whole system is *** backwards.

I'm curious as to what the consensus is here for the candidates. Has there been a poll of sorts?
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:06 AM   #5977
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So, I haven't been here in awhile and thought it'd be fun to read some of this thread. I myself work for a living, so this election is of upmost importance to me.

No help from the government is needed to be successful, it only helps those that can't help themselves. If we continue to allow this type of mindset it will only further damage our economy. Government makes it hard to run a business, but easy as 1,2,3 to get "aid". I'm all for helping those that really need help, but its time to stop enabling.

People want immigrants out but forget a few things. Most importantly the construction industry. Who in the everloving **** do you think will build things? Not only that, think about the amount of additional tax dollars that would come in to OUR country, rather than foreign ones! More than enough to be an impact, thus resulting in a feasible lower tax for all of us.

To me, the whole system is *** backwards.

I'm curious as to what the consensus is here for the candidates. Has there been a poll of sorts?
I agree with all of this
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:08 AM   #5978
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I'll stipulate.

How does that make people who participate in the securities market fascists?

Fascism is a political model which is characterized by a one-party state, centralized economic control, and the espousal of violence as a means to achieve social order. None of these things describe either modern corporate organization or the securities exchange markets as a whole.

It seems like you're fundamentally opposed to free-market capitalism as a whole, which is an odd perspective for a small business owner to have.

Ok.

Is this a problem?

The old axiom is that it takes money to make money. And objectively speaking, there's some truth to that. With regard to political action committees, it's true that money buys speech. But you'd rather that the first amendment be constrained such that it doesn't apply to rich people?

Again, true.

And again, how does that have anything at all to do with stock trading or corporate taxation? Raising corporate taxes above their present level will simply increase the number of individual taxpayers have have a net effective tax rate of zero or less.
I've admittedly expanded my definition of fascism to include threats and intimidation, which is what we see loads of during this administration. Ths morning's Drudge headline reads "Dems on FEC target conservatives, vote to punish maker of anti-Obama movie...". Fascism by proxy by the Democratically controlled FEC.

My working definition of when corporations bend willingly to fascism is Crony Capitalism. Being a crony capitalist doesn't mean you're related by blood, just related by collusion. As a small businessman I see how government rules have changed in the last 7 years to benefit large crony capitalists. "First to file" patents is one way, the barriers to growth by paperwork and regulatory practices is another. The BIG hurdle is pay for play for private corporations. If you want government contracts, you need to work with and for public unions. Want that book contract? You need to be in bed with the teacher's union. Want the grant? Study climate change...the right way.

Capitalism--I'm 100% PRO CAPITALISM. It has saved more lives world wide than any other single thing, probably including any given religion....and us Catholics work HARD helping the less fortunate.

I believe Capitalism works best when there's a level playing field. Where public/private collusion is not allowed, where loopholes and barriers to competition are treated as evil. The level playing field isn't introduced by more regulation, but less. If there was a type of Capitalism I could champion, it would be called "Moral Capitalism", instead of Crony or Machiavellian, or managed, or whatever.

A flat or fair tax, wiping out the IRS and many government regulations would benefit everyone. Because capitalism.
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:20 AM   #5979
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It's closer to 50% who don't pay Federal income tax. You then drop down to 40% of these non-payers that actually gets money BACK from the Feds.

How many states (including California) now have more people on welfare than have jobs?
Care to back up that last assertion?

75% of welfare recipients have at least one working adult in the household. And the largest group by number is white, working, unmarried mothers.

Not illegals and immigrants.
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Old 04-07-2016, 11:30 AM   #5980
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Originally Posted by Vashthestampede View Post
So, I haven't been here in awhile and thought it'd be fun to read some of this thread. I myself work for a living, so this election is of upmost importance to me.

No help from the government is needed to be successful, it only helps those that can't help themselves. If we continue to allow this type of mindset it will only further damage our economy. Government makes it hard to run a business, but easy as 1,2,3 to get "aid". I'm all for helping those that really need help, but its time to stop enabling.

People want immigrants out but forget a few things. Most importantly the construction industry. Who in the everloving **** do you think will build things? Not only that, think about the amount of additional tax dollars that would come in to OUR country, rather than foreign ones! More than enough to be an impact, thus resulting in a feasible lower tax for all of us.

To me, the whole system is *** backwards.

I'm curious as to what the consensus is here for the candidates. Has there been a poll of sorts?
IMMIGRANTS--Don't mix the message. NO ONE wants immigrants out. Conservatives want the rule of law followed, which means that if you're not following the law, you're punished according to it. Obama has waived those rules, just because. Bush did too, to a lesser extent.

Well meaning immigrants cross over the border right next to drug dealers, gang members, terrorists, people who traffic is sexual slavery, murderers, etceteras. Anyone who accepts an open border is colluding with murderers and rapists, as far as I'm concerned.

If the wall goes up and E-verify is instituted, the first thing you're going to see is more Americans getting off welfare and disability and back on the payroll. You'll also see a natural increase in wages. If there is a huge cry for construction workers, you'll see the usual government fumbling, but the front door can handle temporary or even permanent immigrants who can do these jobs.

If Hillary or Bernie is elected, all of this won't matter. We'll all look back fondly at the crash of 2008 and the malaise of the Carter administration.
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