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Old 07-05-2016, 02:32 PM   #6201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
There's been a lot of speculation flying around. The best I can put together is this:
  • People in high branches of government frequently use non-secure communications paths to send secure information mostly because secure systems are a pain in the ***. (Anyone who has ever worked as a gov't contractor knows this.)
  • Clinton, like most other high-ranking members of government, has both a private (non-secure) and an official (secure) email address.
  • The documents in question were sent to Clinton at her private email address by others, and despite containing classified information, were not actually marked as classified.


So, at the risk of sounding like I'm standing up for Clinton (I'm not), it looks like she actually didn't do anything wrong, and that she's merely facing increased scrutiny because she's a candidate for the Presidency of the US. In other words, we (WTP) would appear to be attributing to a conspiracy something which is adequately explained by laziness.
Did you watch the press release from Dir. Comey?
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:32 PM   #6202
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Actually, yes, sending non-secure communications here at the DOS is pretty easy: You open up outlook, and type an email, and hit send (cntrl+enter for the power user). I'll send you a demonstration.

Secure stuff, isn't that hard, it's on its own network, but works just like any other computer. You just have to mark it up appropriately. but yes, it's much easier to ignore the FAH / FAM, and ultimately break the law.

Unlike Clinton, they aren't conducting official business using a private, non-secure, email server and then deleting official records and not fulfilling FIOA requests.

housing classified material in your own home is a violation of the law; that's something wrong. Didn't you JUST post recently about wanting people to be judged according to the law, and not other BS?

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Old 07-05-2016, 02:40 PM   #6203
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housing classified material in your own home is a violation of the law; that's something wrong. Didn't you JUST post recently about wanting people to be judged according to the law, and not other BS?
This is one of those interesting areas of the law in which mens rea is a necessary component of the crime. Specifically, Gorin v. US 312 U.S. 19 (1941) (an espionage case), pointed out that:
The obvious delimiting words in the statute are those requiring "intent or reason to believe that the information to be obtained is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation." This requires those prosecuted to have acted in bad faith.
So in such matters, the prosecution must prove that not only did the accused have knowledge of wrongdoing, but further that they intended to cause harm to the US. This is why Snowden is a traitor, but Clinton is merely a bitch.

Insofar as the preservation of liberties, criminal law works both ways. Sometimes it winds up protecting people like Hillary.
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:40 PM   #6204
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Did you guys actually read/watch the FBI statement in its entirety or just read the media headlines and sound bytes?

https://www.fbi.gov/news/pressrel/pr...-e-mail-system
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:42 PM   #6205
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18 U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material

(a) Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both.
(b) For purposes of this section, the provision of documents and materials to the Congress shall not constitute an offense under subsection (a).
(c) In this section, the term “classified information of the United States” means information originated, owned, or possessed by the United States Government concerning the national defense or foreign relations of the United States that has been determined pursuant to law or Executive order to require protection against unauthorized disclosure in the interests of national security.
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:42 PM   #6206
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Yeah, I'm not seeing how this isn't worthy of punishment. I can incur civil penalties up to $1.5 million for HIPAA violations due to negligence, and up to 10 years in prison for willful HIPAA violations. But a senior government official willfully stores classified data on an unsecured server, then obfuscates the record, and the FBI says, "Well, they didn't mean to, so we'll let bygones be bygones." Maybe we need to put the DHHS in charge of government security compliance.
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:44 PM   #6207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratosteve View Post
18 U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material

(a) Whoever, being an officer, employee, contractor, or consultant of the United States, and, by virtue of his office, employment, position, or contract, becomes possessed of documents or materials containing classified information of the United States, knowingly removes such documents or materials without authority and with the intent to retain such documents or materials at an unauthorized location shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for not more than one year, or both.
(b) For purposes of this section, the provision of documents and materials to the Congress shall not constitute an offense under subsection (a).
(c) In this section, the term “classified information of the United States” means information originated, owned, or possessed by the United States Government concerning the national defense or foreign relations of the United States that has been determined pursuant to law or Executive order to require protection against unauthorized disclosure in the interests of national security.
Also (f): https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/793
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:45 PM   #6208
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Did you guys actually read/watch the FBI statement in its entirety or just read the media headlines and sound bytes?
I watched the video on YT and now I'm looking for rioters to join me.
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:51 PM   #6209
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:53 PM   #6210
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Image of Benghazi Rioters
Nice.
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Old 07-05-2016, 02:54 PM   #6211
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Old 07-05-2016, 03:46 PM   #6212
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I think I'm going to sit this election out. Neither candidate has earned my time.
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Old 07-05-2016, 04:26 PM   #6213
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The amount of (and type of) protesters against Trump earned my vote.
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Old 07-05-2016, 04:38 PM   #6214
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
The amount of (and type of) protesters against Trump earned my vote.
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Old 07-05-2016, 07:45 PM   #6215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
Actually, yes, sending non-secure communications here at the DOS is pretty easy: You open up outlook, and type an email, and hit send (cntrl+enter for the power user). I'll send you a demonstration... Secure stuff, isn't that hard, it's on its own network, but works just like any other computer. You just have to mark it up appropriately. but yes, it's much easier to ignore the FAH / FAM, and ultimately break the law... housing classified material in your own home is a violation of the law; that's something wrong. Didn't you JUST post recently about wanting people to be judged according to the law, and not other BS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
This is one of those interesting areas of the law in which mens rea is a necessary component of the crime. Specifically, Gorin v. US 312 U.S. 19 (1941) (an espionage case), pointed out that:
The obvious delimiting words in the statute are those requiring "intent or reason to believe that the information to be obtained is to be used to the injury of the United States, or to the advantage of any foreign nation." This requires those prosecuted to have acted in bad faith.
So in such matters, the prosecution must prove that not only did the accused have knowledge of wrongdoing, but further that they intended to cause harm to the US. This is why Snowden is a traitor, but Clinton is merely a bitch. Insofar as the preservation of liberties, criminal law works both ways. Sometimes it winds up protecting people like Hillary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
Yeah, I'm not seeing how this isn't worthy of punishment. I can incur civil penalties up to $1.5 million for HIPAA violations due to negligence, and up to 10 years in prison for willful HIPAA violations. But a senior government official willfully stores classified data on an unsecured server, then obfuscates the record, and the FBI says, "Well, they didn't mean to, so we'll let bygones be bygones." Maybe we need to put the DHHS in charge of government security compliance.
If I had done what she has done, the next time you heard from me, the MX5 would be called the Miata again, would come in a 400hp hybrid from the factory (still be slower than a stock Accord), and only be sold to straight white men. When I was a Junior Officer, I got a "Letter of Caution" in my official Navy record because I accidentally left the safe open when I went to take a ****. Everybody in the room where the safe was had a TS clearance, but because nobody was actually using the safe at the time, it was required to be closed. If on that day, after me and the security manager went through the safe and verified every single itemized document was present, had something been missing, you never would have even heard of me because that was before I bought my first Miata, and my Navy career would have been over after a stay out on San Clemente Island doing "environmental work" in an orange jumpsuit.

However, the media isn't talking about the biggest fuckup she made. You think for a second that China didn't have a direct line to everything in her "private server"? What about our friends in Israel or France? There are thousands of dudes in China that their only job is to try and gain access to our ****... and hers was floating around on the internet. What about that Dude who claimed he'd hacked her **** and the FBI made a deal with him... you think he was the only one, or that there were a dozen like him selling all her **** for bitcoins.

I keep coming back to "If you like your insurance plan, you can keep it"... and what awesomeness Hilldog will be remembered for 8 years from now.
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Old 07-05-2016, 09:55 PM   #6216
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I ask the following sincerely, of those who have contributed to this thread recently:

Suppose that you are an employee of Company X, which manufactures and sells industrial widgets. Does the salesman who routinely books 200% of quota, and at good margins, deserve to be held as tightly to the corporate rules for expense reimbursement as the recently hired field service tech?

Last edited by Joe Perez; 07-05-2016 at 10:28 PM.
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Old 07-05-2016, 10:20 PM   #6217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
I ask the following sincerely, of those who have contributed to this thread recently:

Does the salesman who routinely books 200% of quota, and at good margins, deserve to be held as tightly to the corporate rules for expense reimbursement as the recently hired field service tech?
By the book? Yes. However, it depends on established precedent. If sales people were able to expense things a little more loosely in the past it would be hard to hold him/her accountable.
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Old 07-05-2016, 10:30 PM   #6218
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I have updated my previous post to include a preamble to the hypothetical which I omitted the first time. Does this affect your answer?

Presume that there is no past history to influence the enforcement of the rules for expense reporting.
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Old 07-05-2016, 10:39 PM   #6219
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I'll challenge the analogy, because Hillary is privy to information of far greater importance than your junior naval officer. The better analogy is a top salesman sneaking through $10k in personal expenses a year while the service tech fudges a $10 dinner charge.
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Old 07-05-2016, 11:30 PM   #6220
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The better analogy is a top salesman sneaking through $10k in personal expenses a year while the service tech fudges a $10 dinner charge.
This.

I work for the DoD in an unclassified area of an unclassified building doing things that couldn't even be aggregated into something harmful to the government. If I were to auto-forwarded my work email to my personal email so that I could receive my team lead's inane after hours questions without having to carry a laptop home and VPN onto our network, I could be fined or put in jail.

We're not talking about fudging your petty cash reports here. Like Samnavy said, we're talking about something that can and has caused people to go to jail for doing ONCE. And she gets off scot free after doing it a HUNDRED times. She showed that intent to harm the government simply by setting up the server and allowing people to conduct Department of State business over it.
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