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Old 01-10-2012, 06:37 PM   #981
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Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
You're impossible. Here's an excellent example of why any statistics about Cuban healthcare, regardless of who is collecting them, are fraught with problems:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Cuba

Trying to isolate positive aspects of the Cuban healthcare system for application in American society is akin to examining their political system, and then recommending that we install more palm trees in American government buildings.
No, in this case I intentionally went with Cuba to try to get people to realize something.

How insane our medical system is. I've already gotten two people calling me out privately because I have a few "tells" when I'm not seriously arguing - but it's insane that we can, even for a few minutes, seriously argue about Cuba vs. the US.

For what we spend, we do not get our money's worth compared to any other first world country. The moment I can seriously argue a third world country that has ---- for all for medical resources being close to the US should (hopefully) make some people realize how batshit insane our system really is. When our health care can bankrupt the poor or the middle class if they get sick, there's a serious problem.
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Old 01-10-2012, 06:41 PM   #982
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No, in this case I intentionally went with Cuba to try to get people to realize something.

How insane our medical system is. I've already gotten two people calling me out privately because I have a few "tells" when I'm not seriously arguing - but it's insane that we can, even for a few minutes, seriously argue about Cuba vs. the US.

For what we spend, we do not get our money's worth compared to any other first world country. The moment I can seriously argue a third world country that has ---- for all for medical resources being close to the US should (hopefully) make some people realize how batshit insane our system really is.
The only reason anyone bothers is because idiots like Michael Moore do to pawn this crap off as truth, and as a result, you make yourself appear to be an idiot listening to another idiot.

In short, you posting ridiculous drivel, being told it's ridiculous drivel, and then admitting it's ridiculous drivel proves nothing to anyone, demonstrates no hidden truth, and opens no one's eyes.
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Old 01-10-2012, 06:47 PM   #983
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Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
The only reason anyone bothers is because idiots like Michael Moore do to pawn this crap off as truth, and as a result, you make yourself appear to be an idiot listening to another idiot.

In short, you posting ridiculous drivel, being told it's ridiculous drivel, and then admitting it's ridiculous drivel proves nothing to anyone, demonstrates no hidden truth, and opens no one's eyes.
All right, very well. Then tell me, Mg.

Do you, or do you not see a problem with billing/adminstration consuming 30%-45% of all medical costs?

Not doctors. Not lawyers. Not court cases. Not malpractice. Not illegals. Not anything else. Just administration/billing.

I'm being completely serious now, and not ------- with you. Based on various studies, administration/billing costs insurance companies between 16% to 22% of total costs. This is ignoring the hospitals overhead, which the studies I've read place even higher then the insurance companies overhead.

Do you seriously not have a problem with this? Honestly? This is just one factor causing our high medical costs. One. It's easily fixed, and can be fixed overnight.
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Old 01-10-2012, 06:54 PM   #984
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I agree it's a problem; I don't agree that a single-payer system is the obvious solution.
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Old 01-10-2012, 06:57 PM   #985
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I agree it's a problem; I don't agree that a single-payer system is the obvious solution.
Okay. Well enough. Then show me some serious proposals other than single-payer to fix it.

(IIRC, the next highest cost, and I'm certain someone will correct me if I'm wrong ( Scrappy), is legal services. Not doctors or medicine, btw. Or even malpractice. Just fees paid to attorneys for attorney services. Yes, this actually costs more than malpractice. This is tied to why I've said in the past malpractice reform won't help much - it doesn't address the main cost.)
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Old 01-10-2012, 07:11 PM   #986
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We decide how to produce our own statistics, Scrappy. Are you arguing that the way in which we publish statistics is inferior to other countries?
I don't understand your question relative to the numerous comments I have made on the statistics mentioned above.

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And? Explain the medical tourism to Cuba then, please.
I am not familiar with it. Can you explain it to me, citing sources I can review? Unfortunately, the primary sources mentioned in the Wired article are only available via pay services and I am not that motivated.
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Old 01-10-2012, 07:16 PM   #987
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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
I don't understand your question relative to the numerous comments I have made on the statistics mentioned above.
Shorthand, I was doing what Brainy frequently does. But the US decides how to make it's own statistics. Are you saying the US's statistics are inferior to other countries?

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I am not familiar with it. Can you explain it to me, citing sources I can review? Unfortunately, the primary sources mentioned in the Wired article are only available via pay services and I am not that motivated.
You've never heard of US citizens going to Cuba for medical treatment?

It's actually fairly common. Google "medical tourism".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism#Cuba - Wikipedia article to start you out.
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:11 AM   #988
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Just want to make sure we are on same page:

In 2006, Cuba attracted nearly 20,000 medical tourists.[66]

...the same McKinsey study estimated that 750,000 American medical tourists traveled from the United States to other countries in 2007 (up from 500,000 in 2006).

20,000 / 500,000 = 4% and that assumes they all came from the US...which we both know they didn't, considering the hurdles it takes to travel there.
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:21 AM   #989
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Originally Posted by mgeoffriau View Post
You're impossible. Here's an excellent example of why any statistics about Cuban healthcare, regardless of who is collecting them, are fraught with problems:
While not about the Cuban, but another statist, healthcare system (that we actually help fund)--I just want to piggyback off this and post this interesting read:

Quote:
…a government decision to expand a list of state-recognized disability categories to include pedophiles, exhibitionists and kleptomaniacs. …The Labor Ministry said categories added to the expanded list – that also includes pyromaniacs, compulsive gamblers, fetishists and sadomasochists – were included for purposes of medical assessment and used as a gauge for allocating financial assistance. …The new list gives pyromaniacs and pedophiles disability pay up to 35 percent.
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:27 AM   #990
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Originally Posted by blaen99 View Post
Shorthand, I was doing what Brainy frequently does. But the US decides how to make it's own statistics. Are you saying the US's statistics are inferior to other countries?
I am saying that some other countries report their statistics in a different manner than the USA. We already discussed this.


Quote:
You've never heard of US citizens going to Cuba for medical treatment?

It's actually fairly common. Google "medical tourism".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism#Cuba - Wikipedia article to start you out.
Here is the source cited for the "20,000 medical tourists" stat:
link

[Edit: Yes, that link is correctly copied from the Wikipedia article.]
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:30 AM   #991
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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
While not about the Cuban, but another statist, healthcare system (that we actually help fund)--I just want to piggyback off this and post this interesting read:
What? In what way to we "help fund" the Greek government?


I might have to take some time off from this thread because it seems like people are just randomly making ***** up just to annoy other people.
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Old 01-11-2012, 10:37 AM   #992
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What? In what way to we "help fund" the Greek government?
We pay taxes. Obama pledges support to the IMF bailout. Our tax dollars fund 20% of the IMF. IMF bailout funds Greece. Greece gives handouts to pedophiles.

am i wrong?

Quote:
I might have to take some time off from this thread because it seems like people are just randomly making ***** up just to annoy other people.
instead they should post random pictures:

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Old 01-11-2012, 02:06 PM   #993
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http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insid...r_jim_galloway

Quote:
Bill would ban Photoshopped heads on nude, lewd bodies
10:48 am January 9, 2012, by jgalloway

The 2012 session of the Legislature isn’t an hour old yet, but a bill likely to become a water-cooler favorite has already made its debut:

H.B. 680, filed by state Rep. Pam Dickerson, D-Conyers, would make it a misdemeanor to Photoshop an unsuspecting – or heck, even suspecting – individual’s head on the nude or lewd body of another, and posting the image on the Internet.

Such an act would be a misdemeanor punishable by a $1,000 fine or a year in the hoosegow. Read the details here.

There is a presumption in the legislation, of course, that the head would be the offended body part in these cases. No recourse would be offered to Matthew McConaughey’s torso if it suddenly should find itself topped with the head of Mitt Romney.

- By Jim Galloway, Political Insider
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:14 PM   #994
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There go 99% of the ads for bodybuilding products.
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:45 PM   #995
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Old 01-11-2012, 02:48 PM   #996
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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...-dries-up.html

Quote:
Greek Crisis Dries Up Drug Supply
QBy Naomi Kresge - Jan 10, 2012 5:01 PM ET .
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Greek Crisis Dries Up Drug Supply Louisa Gouliamaki/AFP/Getty Images
The 12,000 pharmacies that dot almost every street corner in Greek cities are the damaged capillaries of a complex system for getting treatment to patients.

The 12,000 pharmacies that dot almost every street corner in Greek cities are the damaged capillaries of a complex system for getting treatment to patients. Photographer: Louisa Gouliamaki/AFP/Getty Images
.For patients and pharmacists in financially stricken Greece, even finding aspirin has turned into a headache.

Mina Mavrou, who runs a pharmacy in a middle-class Athens suburb, spends hours each day pleading with drugmakers, wholesalers and colleagues to hunt down medicines for clients. Life-saving drugs such as Sanofi (SAN)’s blood-thinner Clexane and GlaxoSmithKline Plc (GSK)’s asthma inhaler Flixotide often appear as lines of crimson data on pharmacists’ computer screens, meaning the products aren’t in stock or that pharmacists can’t order as many units as they need.

“When we see red, we want to cry,” Mavrou said. “The situation is worsening day by day.”

The 12,000 pharmacies that dot almost every street corner in Greek cities are the damaged capillaries of a complex system for getting treatment to patients. The Panhellenic Association of Pharmacists reports shortages of almost half the country’s 500 most-used medicines. Even when drugs are available, pharmacists often must foot the bill up front, or patients simply do without.

The financial crisis is brewing a “Greek tragedy” of slowing access to medical care and worsening outcomes for patients, Martin McKee, a professor of European public health at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, wrote in an October article in The Lancet.

The Greek Ministry of Health didn’t respond to repeated requests for comment.

‘Many Difficulties’
“It would be unrealistic to deny that there are many difficulties regarding all public services due to the financial crisis,” Nicolaos Polyzos, secretary general of the Ministry of Health, wrote in a response to McKee’s article posted on the ministry’s website. “However, this cannot justify characterizing the current picture of (the) health sector in Greece as a ‘tragedy.’”

The reasons for the shortages are complex. One major cause is the Greek government, which sets prices for medicines. As part of an effort to cut its own costs, Greece has mandated lower drug prices in the past year. That has fed a secondary market, drug manufacturers contend, as wholesalers sell their shipments outside the country at higher prices than they can get within Greece.

Strained government finances only make matters worse. Wholesalers and pharmacists say the system suffers from a lack of liquidity, as public insurers delay payments to pharmacies, which in turn can’t pay suppliers on time.

“Wholesalers simply do not have the money anymore to play bank to the pharmacies,” Heinz Kobelt, secretary general of the European Association of Euro-Pharmaceutical Companies, said in a telephone interview.

330 Million Euros
Public insurers owe pharmacists some 330 million euros ($422.1 million) for drugs bought since April, Dimitris Karageorgiou, vice-chairman of the pharmacists’ association, said in an interview last month. Payment can take three months to up to a year, pharmacists said. Some are turning to patients to pay up front.

“They’re saying you pay me now, and then you’ll get the money from your social security fund,” said Ioannis Theodorakis, chairman of the Association of Persons with Multiple Sclerosis.

Theodorakis said he already knows a few patients who can’t afford to pay and aren’t on treatment. If non-payment by public insurers continues, more will discontinue treatment, he said in an interview in his office in Athens, a few steps from where protesters lob Molotov cocktails and pelt police with rocks at Syntagma Square.

‘Dysfunctional’ System
“The whole system is dysfunctional,” said Aggeliki Matsouki, who opened her first pharmacy in Athens in 1981.

Chain-smoking in her tiny back office, Matsouki described calling other pharmacies to track down London-based Glaxo’s oral herpes drug Famvir. “If I can’t find a prescription drug, I try to borrow it from colleagues. We exchange medicines.”

Austerity measures imposed to address the financial crisis may paradoxically be making matters worse. Greek wholesalers now have more incentive than ever to sell drugs outside the country after Greece implemented a law last year further reducing prices. The law sets prices of medicines according to the average of the three lowest charges in 22 European Union countries, part of an effort to trim a health bill that in 2010 totaled more than 13 billion euros, or about 5 percent of GDP.

Parallel Trading
Parallel imports peaked in 2004, then flattened out about two years ago once drugmakers imposed quotas of the maximum amount of medicines they think the Greek market will need, said Kobelt, whose Brussels-based association represents companies engaged in the trade. Still, if pharmacies can’t pay, it makes economic sense to ship the drugs back out again rather than let them languish on wholesalers’ shelves, he said.

Kobelt said he’s seen boxes of Bayer AG (BAYN)’s Aspirin in Poland that originated in Greece, suggesting that the medicine fetches higher prices in eastern Europe.

“Even Polish people pay more than Greeks for Aspirin,” he said. “That is the recipe for parallel trade, I’m sorry to say.”

Novo Nordisk A/S (NOVOB), based in Bagsvaerd, Denmark, is a case in point.

“We are competing with our own products,” said Mike Rulis, a spokesman for the company.

Novo stopped selling some of its higher-priced insulins in Greece for about a month in 2010 after the government cut prices by about 25 percent. The drugmaker now ships in the same volume as before the cuts, yet pharmacists are running short of insulin, Rulis said in a telephone interview.

Special Deliveries
“There are cases where pharmacies will call our Greek affiliate and say, ‘We are out of stock, can you help us,’” he said. “Then we will call the wholesaler to make a special delivery.”

Reimbursement fraud compounds the drain on the country’s health resources, Richard Bergstrom, director-general of European Federation of Pharmaceutical Industries and Associations, said in an interview. Drugs shipped elsewhere yet submitted for reimbursement to public insurers as if they had been prescribed to patients cost Greece more than 500 million euros a year, Bergstrom said, citing figures he said he got from the Ministry of Health.

In a later e-mail, Bergstrom said he had personally seen packs of drugs with Greek reimbursement stickers on the market outside of Greece, suggesting that exporters were reimbursed and able to ship the packs abroad.

“If the pack is exported, the exporter is obliged to ’cancel’ the code, a bar code, by using a black pen,” Bergstrom wrote. “But this is not monitored.”

Up-Front Payment
Not all pharmacists can afford to pay up-front for costly drugs in the hope of being reimbursed by insurers.

An invoice provided to Bloomberg News shows Roche Holding AG (ROG) requesting a 926-euro payment in advance from a pharmacy for NeoRecormon, a medicine used to treat anemia in chemotherapy and chronic kidney disease patients.

The Swiss drugmaker switched to a payment-on-delivery policy for hospitals with a history of nonpayment last year after accepting 400 million Swiss francs ($426.7 million) in Greek government bonds for unpaid hospital debts. The Greek government announced in December 2010 it would issue more than 5 billion euros of non-interest paying bonds to hospital suppliers for unpaid bills from 2007 to 2009.

Roche extends a credit to pharmacies and in some cases has extended credit limits to ensure patients can get drugs, Daniel Grotzky, a company spokesman, said in a telephone interview. “This might be a pharmacy which has used up its credit line,” he said.

Difficult Decisions
A year ago, the Health Ministry advised MS patients to buy medicine through state hospitals, Theodorakis said. Those hospitals often don’t have enough drugs, so patients go to pharmacies instead, he said.

Theodorakis stopped taking Merck KGaA (MRK)’s Rebif in 2006 because he wasn’t satisfied the drug’s benefits outweighed its side effects in his particular case. The frustrating process of obtaining medicine contributed to his decision not to start taking another drug, said Theodorakis, who uses a wheelchair and has an assistant to type his e-mails.

“It’s a difficult decision to make because you can’t play dice with your health,” Theodorakis said.
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Old 01-11-2012, 03:20 PM   #997
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Old 01-11-2012, 05:54 PM   #998
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The only reason anyone bothers is because idiots like Michael Moore do to pawn this crap off as truth, and as a result, you make yourself appear to be an idiot listening to another idiot.
when michael moore was asked by alex jones why he didn't discuss NORAD standing down or the "hardcore" issues michael moore responded
"that would be un-american"
i dont care how you feel about 9-11
there is NOTHING un-american about discussing any aspect of it

not trying to open up the 9-11 can of worms
but just pointing out michaels idiotness

the michael moore part isn't until 30 sec into the vid
perhaps he feels we should just shut up and be good citizens

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Old 01-11-2012, 06:33 PM   #999
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Old 01-11-2012, 06:46 PM   #1000
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haha
this is epic
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