Xede on MSM anyone? - Miata Turbo Forum -Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


ECUs and Tuning Discuss Engine Management, Tuning, & Programming

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 08-31-2016, 01:42 PM   #1
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Marblehead, MA, USA
Posts: 13
Total Cats: 0
Default Xede on MSM anyone?

On the phone OS analogy, I'm ready to start playing with Palm OS... Xede piggyback for my MSM, which I bought here for a measly $200. Please don't tell me to get a Megasquirt. I've corresponded with Rev, what I'd want from him is about $1500, over 15% of what I paid for the car. I simply don't want to spend that kind of cash if I can get 70%-80% of the benefit for <15% of the cost.

Stephanie from BEGi has been very helpful and sent me relevant basemaps. I can do my annual state OBDII emissions tomorrow, then reinstall the stock MSM EBC, and burn the maps provided. Xede used to be pretty popular before MS became the go-to option. Does anyone have any experience or tips for this old setup? Any recommended tuners in eastern MA or southern NH?

This is meant to be a cost-effective, low-budget build on a non-daily driver. I enjoy finding low-cost, high bang for the buck ways to get things done whenever possible. I've mostly managed to score used (1/2 price FM cat back) and low-cost (Joe's MAF relocation intake) breathing improvements so far. Only paid retail $$ for a new FM downpipe. My primary goal is to overcome the stock MSM lean hesitation, which is only more obvious with the better breathing. Any increase in power outputs is really just icing on the cake... Currently, I'm on stock injectors and fueling system, can pick up some 420cc RX8 yellow tops for short money...

Any tuning advice or referrals to local-ish tuners close to Boston?
RockHead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2016, 01:46 PM   #2
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 33,157
Total Cats: 1,990
Default

If you're looking for validation, you're not gonna find much of it here.
As for tuning advice, very few here run the xede so you're going to have to figure it out by searching really old posts/threads from back in the day when we used this prehistoric device. But overall, given your goals, you'll probably be ok with it. It's very easy to make 200whp on a MSM with bolt ons. Even with a mediocre-at-best old piggyback. Good luck
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2016, 01:51 PM   #3
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Marblehead, MA, USA
Posts: 13
Total Cats: 0
Default

I'm secure in my rationale, so not looking for validation. And I've read up on all I can find here.

Mazda-speed.com used to have an Xede forum, but blew it away when the sponsorship dried up. I've found what I could from that via the Wayback Machine too...
RockHead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2016, 03:14 PM   #4
SOMEOFIT
iTrader: (1)
 
Girz0r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,510
Total Cats: 219
Default

You should be able to pass inspection with zero problems as long as it's setup in the config correctly for the stock injectors. All zero's on the maps = pass through and no changes are being made.

As for injectors, I'm using five-o 460cc EV14 injectors supplied from BEGi. They run much better than my previous RC 440cc set. I would try to go EV14 if possible and skip on the rx8. But if you're still running the stock turbo setup then the rx8 should be fine... Not going to get much more psi out of the stock ihi.
Girz0r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2016, 03:19 PM   #5
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 33,157
Total Cats: 1,990
Default

Honestly if you're just using it to smooth over the nasty OEM midrange mumbo jumbo while retaining OBD compliance, I can see this getting the job done.

Keep stock injectors, do the typical "little enchilada" bolt ons minus the signal modifier, add fuel and timing in the midrange, bump boost to 10 with an mbc and enjoy.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2016, 05:30 PM   #6
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Marblehead, MA, USA
Posts: 13
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Girz0r View Post
You should be able to pass inspection with zero problems as long as it's setup in the config correctly for the stock injectors. All zero's on the maps = pass through and no changes are being made.

As for injectors, I'm using five-o 460cc EV14 injectors supplied from BEGi. They run much better than my previous RC 440cc set. I would try to go EV14 if possible and skip on the rx8. But if you're still running the stock turbo setup then the rx8 should be fine... Not going to get much more psi out of the stock ihi.
Thanks!

I'm running on zero'd maps right now. Car runs fine, other than cranking a touch longer to start. Threw a couple of CELs for wastegate solenoid last night, first time driving with the FM downpipe. I've dialed back the MBC a touch and will stay out of the full throttle range to allow the OBDII checks for evap and whatnot to register after clearing them, so I can get through the MA inspection in the next couple of days.

I'm not planning on doing anything with the stock turbo, at least until it dies of natural causes. But then I'm treading closer to needing to do a full engine build, which I can't really justify to myself. I'll cross that bridge when & if I get to it.

Thanks for the injector feedback. I've read that the RC 440's BEGi used to supply with the Xede might be less than ideal. I was considering these FIC 445cc injectors 445cc FIC Mazda Miata Fuel Injector Clinic Injector Set (High-Z), but if the 460's from BEGi work, and if I'm going to give anyone money, it should be them for helping me out with tuning support for an old product... Is the $200 incremental cost over the used RX8 420's worth it? That's always the question for me. If they're going to be easier to tune, idle better and putter around town better, than the answer is yes.
RockHead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2016, 05:47 PM   #7
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Marblehead, MA, USA
Posts: 13
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Honestly if you're just using it to smooth over the nasty OEM midrange mumbo jumbo while retaining OBD compliance, I can see this getting the job done.

Keep stock injectors, do the typical "little enchilada" bolt ons minus the signal modifier, add fuel and timing in the midrange, bump boost to 10 with an mbc and enjoy.
Thanks

I realized after I posted that I hadn't updated my signature when I wrote the OP. I've done all of the LE equivalent bolt-on mods as of yesterday when I finished up the FM downpipe install (see sig).

The Xede will do EBC with the stock solenoid, and it's in the BEGi basemap, so I'm going to switch back to that from the MBC. I just need to remember how the vac lines hooked up! If it sucks, I can easily swap back to MBC. It also has the ability to incorporate the wideband input into mapping, but I need to get running and well tuned without that first.

Smoothing out the power delivery is my main goal. Of course squeezing out a bit more power is always a good thing. That would be a nice bonus! I'm inclined to bump up the injector size for some more power, but from the research I've done, much over 440cc/460cc injectors will become problematic at idle, starts, etc. with the Xede. And please correct me if I'm wrong, but at that size injector, I should be OK with the stock fuel pump and FPR, right?
RockHead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2016, 05:51 PM   #8
SOMEOFIT
iTrader: (1)
 
Girz0r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,510
Total Cats: 219
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHead View Post
Thanks

I realized after I posted that I hadn't updated my signature when I wrote the OP. I've done all of the LE equivalent bolt-on mods as of yesterday when I finished up the FM downpipe install (see sig).

The Xede will do EBC with the stock solenoid, and it's in the BEGi basemap, so I'm going to switch back to that from the MBC. I just need to remember how the vac lines hooked up! If it sucks, I can easily swap back to MBC. It also has the ability to incorporate the wideband input into mapping, but I need to get running and well tuned without that first.

Smoothing out the power delivery is my main goal. Of course squeezing out a bit more power is always a good thing. That would be a nice bonus! I'm inclined to bump up the injector size for some more power, but from the research I've done, much over 440cc/460cc injectors will become problematic at idle, starts, etc. with the Xede. And please correct me if I'm wrong, but at that size injector, I should be OK with the stock fuel pump and FPR, right?

Going from the RC 440s to the five-o 460cc was a very audible difference and the motor seemed to run a bit smoother.

But don't get me wrong, five-o isnt the best... You're better off picking up flow force or ID injectors (but xede doesn't support those )

IMO, honestly since 18psi mentioned it. Since you're not doing anything major with the turbo just yet. Just do exactly what he said.

Though it's extremely difficult to know what timing you're doing due to zero logging on the xede. And dialing in fuel is you staring at your AFR gauge while driving fast on the road.. While also seeing which rpms the lean condition is occurring at... scary stuff.

I'd get to a dyno, do a stock run as is then bump up the timing a little bit as mentioned in the area's that dip.

Oh yea, Don't use the oem solenoid as boost control... It's just an on/off switch in scale operation 0-100% - You're better off using it's source point -> MBC -> turbo wastegate. (a quality MBC, no janky bs) Set it and forget it... 10psi is the highest I'd do.

In OEM form, it 'opens' to 100% at 3500rpm - the xede gives you a scale to work with but then again... it's like pinching off a hose and only letting out a little bit or until you 'reach' your target and maintain the pinch on the wastegate.

Keep it plugged in and cap it off. If you want EBC, my first pick would be the GFB unit. It gives much better modulation over MBC and using the oem solenoid... and is external, keeps your oem happy. Set target, set in other features and it'll do the rest.
Girz0r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2016, 06:29 PM   #9
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Marblehead, MA, USA
Posts: 13
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Girz0r View Post
Going from the RC 440s to the five-o 460cc was a very audible difference and the motor seemed to run a bit smoother.

IMO, honestly since 18psi mentioned it. Since you're not doing anything major with the turbo just yet. Just do exactly what he said.

Though it's extremely difficult to know what timing you're doing due to zero logging on the xede. And dialing in fuel is you staring at your AFR gauge while driving fast on the road.. While also seeing which rpms the lean condition is occurring at... scary stuff.

I'd get to a dyno, do a stock run as is then bump up the timing a little bit as mentioned in the area's that dip.

Oh yea, Don't use the oem solenoid as boost control... It's just an on/off switch in operation 0-100% - You're better off using it's source point -> MBC -> turbo wastegate.

Keep it plugged in and cap it off. If you want EBC, my first pick would be the GFB unit. It gives much better modulation over MBC and using the oem solenoid... and is external, keeps your oem happy. Set target, set in other features and it'll do the rest.
You have run or are running an Xede in a MSM I gather? Thanks a million for the input! I'll take your advice and stick with the MBC. Maybe I'll play with it later. Or not. Stephanie at BEGi was highly confident that the Xede can manage the stock EBC well. I currently have the stock EBC sitting in the barn, with a resistor in the plug. I may see how it goes as is first, and just throw the stock solenoid in capped off as you suggest, if the resistor doesn't seem to do the trick. That worked just fine until I added the downpipe and got boost solenoid range CELs when I fully opened the throttle. Hopefully it was just a boost spike and dialing back the MBC a touch will overcome that. (Didn't hit boost cut though, so I could be wrong)

Maybe I've got a newer Xede or firmware and/or Xmap? Mine will do logging and has an input for analog wideband voltage, which it can also log. Once I pull that into a spreadsheet, I can convert the logged wideband voltage signal to an actual AFR to see what's going on to tweak fueling. I can log timing & fueling raw inputs and Xede modified outputs. My plan is to attempt to coordinate logging with Torque Pro OBDII narrowband O2 logs for closed loop fuel trim at cruise. I'm not sure how that might work out in practice though.

I'm reasonably comfortable with my ability to learn to do any fueling map adjustments. Timing adjustments are the part I'm most concerned with, and lacking confidence in... I've studied the BEGi basemap and see where it adds timing. I'll take any advice on tweaking that.

I have a buddy in Maine with a dyno and he's offered to help. He's got a boosted 1.6 Miata, as well as a fully built Mistubishi 3000GT and Saab Viggen (and a bunch of other cool 4-wheel toys). So he knows a thing or two about tuning turbo cars. It's just a bit of a haul to get to him.
RockHead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2016, 06:48 PM   #10
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 33,157
Total Cats: 1,990
Default

Stephanie is quite possibly the most clueless person in the world when it comes to turbo miata's. And I'm not even joking here. Her advice is just plain terrible.
Stick with oem injectors if you want near oem driveability on the xede. Or bump them up only ever so slightly. It runs out of resolution real fast. Leave MBC, but plug in the oem ebc so the computer is happy. Or resistor, whatever. The OEM ebc is trash. Useless. And the xede sucks at boost control.

You're "tuning" two systems that are constantly fighting and manipulating each other. And using work arounds for lots of the shortcomings of the OEM ecu and the prehistoric Xede. So there's that. And there is no point to make big power cause you'll max out the maf and throw a code for that at like, 230whp?

And seriously, take any sort of tuning begi provides with a crate of salt. Or don't and learn the hard way why they are pretty much completely irrelevant in this day and age, and basically near extinct.

There aint much to tuning these cars. And "other turbo car knowledge" is darn near useless here too. Because you need to learn the tricks of tuning this weird setup and wroking around it's shortcomings. This is why Megasquirt is so popular around here. It's direct and straightforward
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2016, 06:54 PM   #11
SOMEOFIT
iTrader: (1)
 
Girz0r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,510
Total Cats: 219
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RockHead View Post
You have run or are running an Xede in a MSM I gather? Thanks a million for the input! I'll take your advice and stick with the MBC. Maybe I'll play with it later. Or not. Stephanie at BEGi was highly confident that the Xede can manage the stock EBC well. I currently have the stock EBC sitting in the barn, with a resistor in the plug. I may see how it goes as is first, and just throw the stock solenoid in capped off as you suggest, if the resistor doesn't seem to do the trick. That worked just fine until I added the downpipe and got boost solenoid range CELs when I fully opened the throttle. Hopefully it was just a boost spike and dialing back the MBC a touch will overcome that. (Didn't hit boost cut though, so I could be wrong)

Maybe I've got a newer Xede or firmware and/or Xmap? Mine will do logging and has an input for analog wideband voltage, which it can also log. Once I pull that into a spreadsheet, I can convert the logged wideband voltage signal to an actual AFR to see what's going on to tweak fueling. I can log timing & fueling raw inputs and Xede modified outputs. My plan is to attempt to coordinate logging with Torque Pro OBDII narrowband O2 logs for closed loop fuel trim at cruise. I'm not sure how that might work out in practice though.

I'm reasonably comfortable with my ability to learn to do any fueling map adjustments. Timing adjustments are the part I'm most concerned with, and lacking confidence in... I've studied the BEGi basemap and see where it adds timing. I'll take any advice on tweaking that.

I have a buddy in Maine with a dyno and he's offered to help. He's got a boosted 1.6 Miata, as well as a fully built Mistubishi 3000GT and Saab Viggen (and a bunch of other cool 4-wheel toys). So he knows a thing or two about tuning turbo cars. It's just a bit of a haul to get to him.
It'll do the EBC no problem but you'll have to fine tune it to the T to get it to function as a more modern EBC. Whats nice about the GFB unit is that it has it's own internal map sensor. Once it senses target psi, it'll back off. You can set duty cycle, gain, sensitivity to adjust the curve and have it stay at target through the rpm range and get to target much quicker than using a MBC or oem solenoid alone. And keeps CEL codes at bay lol.

Not sure what you're talking about with the resistor I'd remove it.

Mine will datalog and do afr analog input, but doing all the spreadsheet stuff is lame when you compare it to megalog viewer & megasquirt. But I do applaud you for wanting to do the legwork

Are you able to post the basemap here? I wouldn't mind taking a look at it as is.
Girz0r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2016, 06:55 PM   #12
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 33,157
Total Cats: 1,990
Default

they install a resistor in to the oem ebc plug to keep the check engine light off when running mbc
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2016, 06:58 PM   #13
SOMEOFIT
iTrader: (1)
 
Girz0r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,510
Total Cats: 219
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
resistor in the oem ebc plug to keep the check engine light off

Last edited by Girz0r; 09-01-2016 at 11:25 AM.
Girz0r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2016, 07:01 PM   #14
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 33,157
Total Cats: 1,990
Default

There's a lot of silly things you gotta do when not running a proper ecu.
You..of all people...REALLY knows how true this is
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2016, 07:25 PM   #15
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Marblehead, MA, USA
Posts: 13
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Girz0r View Post
It'll do the EBC no problem but you'll have to fine tune it to the T to get it to function as a more modern EBC. Whats nice about the GFB unit is that it has it's own internal map sensor. Once it senses target psi, it'll back off. You can set duty cycle, gain, sensitivity to adjust the curve and have it stay at target through the rpm range and get to target much quicker than using a MBC or oem solenoid alone. And keeps CEL codes at bay lol.

Not sure what you're talking about with the resistor I'd remove it.

Mine will datalog and do afr analog input, but doing all the spreadsheet stuff is lame when you compare it to megalog viewer & megasquirt. But I do applaud you for wanting to do the legwork

Are you able to post the basemap here? I wouldn't mind taking a look at it as is.
I appreciate the applause, such as it is. I'm really good with persistence, brute force and ignorance! I'm a touch of a non-conformist, as you may have noticed

I love that GFB has a Might Car Mods video right on their product page. LOL That really does look like a nice way to go for EBC. I have some mates coming from AUS in November, maybe they can carry one over for me, but I'll shop around first. Anyway, that's a longer term option. Not gonna happen right off the bat. For now I'll stick with the MBC I have, which works quite well.

The site doesn't like the Xede file type. I've tried calling it a XLS and attaching it, change it back to X32 and see if that works. or PM me with your email addy
RockHead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2016, 10:02 AM   #16
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Marblehead, MA, USA
Posts: 13
Total Cats: 0
Default

Link to the map
RockHead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-01-2016, 11:20 AM   #17
SOMEOFIT
iTrader: (1)
 
Girz0r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 2,510
Total Cats: 219
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
There's a lot of silly things you gotta do when not running a proper ecu.
You..of all people...REALLY knows how true this is
Girz0r is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2016, 08:04 PM   #18
Newb
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Marblehead, MA, USA
Posts: 13
Total Cats: 0
Default

I finally had some time to focus on the $200 Xede piggyback ECU. After a couple of hours messing around with the car yesterday and today, I think I finally figured out the issue with it. The used one I bought has a resistor in the wiring harness, which must be on the TPS. With the BEGi basemap modifying also the TPS signal, it was bucking horribly on open/closed throttle transitions after getting into boost, to the point the car was undriveable without pulling over, shutting it off and restarting. So after looking at CELs, I started messing around with making my own maps, then tried deleting various maps within the BEGi basemaps.

I finally narrowed it down to the TPS (Load) map. I burned in the BEGi basemaps for ignition timing, fuel, knock and WBO2 but zeroed out the TPS map. Ditched their boost map, as I'm running Joe's MBC. Also have FMIC, and FM turbo-back.

All is good now. Smooth, linear power all the way through the revs, with good AFRs. No more bucking on open/closed throttle transitions. And MORE POWER. Whoo Hoo!! Finally. The car really feels like it should have been from the factory.

I just need to decide if I want to yank that resistor and go with the BEGi TPS map, or leave it be. I'm going to drive it for a bit and see how it is this way. Then on to dyno tuning with a buddy of mine.

I'm pretty freaking excited. I was getting frustrated, and on the verge of giving up. I feel like I made the breakthrough to get the car where I want, on a shoestring investment, only about $1200 net, over the purchase price. It's taken a year of research, shopping, and stubborn persistence, but I think I'm tantalizingly close.

Of course the front brake pad wear indicator just started squealing, and I can now seriously overdrive the General all season tires which came on the car. Time for some Carbotech front pads, and a ransom to Tire Rack for some proper tires... I was hoping to wear them out first. Oh well... And maybe some 400cc injectors...

My daughter doesn't really need to go to college, right?? LOL
RockHead is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Megasquirt 2 PNP, DW injectors, DW fuel pump jankymiata Miata parts for sale/trade 6 04-04-2016 03:11 PM
Tuner studio 2.9 beta released aidandj MEGAsquirt 11 03-25-2016 08:34 AM
Msm, which style of bov do you prefer? Troy Jordan DIY Turbo Discussion 17 03-22-2016 11:01 PM
DIY: How to tap fuel rail on NB2 for return fuel system ajay842 Engine Performance 18 03-17-2016 06:03 PM
E-manage ultimate FAQ smiles Useful Saved Posts 1 07-25-2005 11:34 AM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:07 PM.