Twincharging, Serious discussion.
11-14-2013, 09:50 PM
#81
I appreciate the input, however if you actually understand the plan you will realise:
- The sc14 has an electromagnetic clutch on the supercharger drive pulley. that can be disengaged once the turbocharger is making adequate boost.
- The Supercharger Bypass Valve, currently sized at 80mm opens to allow the turbocharger to freely breathe directly from the airbox.
As you mentioned, the supercharger will limit the amount of air going into the engine to what the actual output of the supercharger is. Up until the point of being bypassed, at which stage it no longer presents an upstream restriction.
As mentioned earlier, I like to try new things so I am all ears for valid arguments/concepts that help me learn and improve the potential.
The main variance I will have from the VW TSI engine is the lack of the "Dynamic compressor operation".
Low revs will be supercharger only, high revs turbocharger only, with a small window of compounded boost at the crossover period.
There will be (at this stage) no programmed logic controlling operational conditions where the supercharger may be engaged based on demand.
- The sc14 has an electromagnetic clutch on the supercharger drive pulley. that can be disengaged once the turbocharger is making adequate boost.
- The Supercharger Bypass Valve, currently sized at 80mm opens to allow the turbocharger to freely breathe directly from the airbox.
As you mentioned, the supercharger will limit the amount of air going into the engine to what the actual output of the supercharger is. Up until the point of being bypassed, at which stage it no longer presents an upstream restriction.
As mentioned earlier, I like to try new things so I am all ears for valid arguments/concepts that help me learn and improve the potential.
The main variance I will have from the VW TSI engine is the lack of the "Dynamic compressor operation".
Low revs will be supercharger only, high revs turbocharger only, with a small window of compounded boost at the crossover period.
There will be (at this stage) no programmed logic controlling operational conditions where the supercharger may be engaged based on demand.
If you want twin charging why not go with a twin turbo setup? Small 20 sized turbo for very very low end and a bigger size for top end. Easier to setup plus more power in the low end.
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11-14-2013, 10:00 PM
#82
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I wouldnt even use different sized turbos. Id use 2 of the same sized turbos and put a really big wastegate on the outlet of one of them.
With the way EWGs have a cracking pressure roughly half of being fully opened it would probably transition very nicely without any complicated bullshit.
With the way EWGs have a cracking pressure roughly half of being fully opened it would probably transition very nicely without any complicated bullshit.
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11-14-2013, 10:22 PM
#83
I wouldnt even use different sized turbos. Id use 2 of the same sized turbos and put a really big wastegate on the outlet of one of them.
With the way EWGs have a cracking pressure roughly half of being fully opened it would probably transition very nicely without any complicated bullshit.
With the way EWGs have a cracking pressure roughly half of being fully opened it would probably transition very nicely without any complicated bullshit.
I'd refer you to turbotims epic twin setup which made no more power or torque or had any better of a powerband than a absurd single running pretty much same everything else.
And I seriously doubt plumbing ewg and adding even more clutter to this setup would drastically change anything.
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11-15-2013, 12:12 AM
#85
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The potential for a TT setup to make more low end power than the supercharger is questionable, only possibly supported by the poor efficiency of the current supercharger. Compare it a 25year old turbocharger (the same era) and the low end torque delivery of the supercharger comes out on top.
The car has already been supercharged, adding the turbo and bypass components is quite a simple process in the scheme of things.
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11-15-2013, 12:39 AM
#87
While I am not entirely against twin charging I see no reason to do it on a ground up build. The best application I have seen was a mini cooper with small OEM SC and a large turbo installed to compliment the blower and raise top end HP. The result was 350whp with stock drivability. That was 10 years ago. With the fast spooling turbos today I see no good reason to twin charge. Kudos to great workmanship though.
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11-15-2013, 02:41 AM
#88
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eh
I'd refer you to turbotims epic twin setup which made no more power or torque or had any better of a powerband than a absurd single running pretty much same everything else.
And I seriously doubt plumbing ewg and adding even more clutter to this setup would drastically change anything.
I'd refer you to turbotims epic twin setup which made no more power or torque or had any better of a powerband than a absurd single running pretty much same everything else.
And I seriously doubt plumbing ewg and adding even more clutter to this setup would drastically change anything.
Im sure it still wouldnt make the best top end though.
I dont see how it would make it any more cluttered. It may actually make it easier since the wastegate would create a nice tight 90 for the secondary turbo downpipe (probably the one closest to the firewall).
I think they were GT17s
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11-15-2013, 09:25 AM
#89
I know that compound turbos can be found on diesel setups, like the ATS turbo image below. My hybrid MSM turbo sits down low just like the stock MSM turbo. I could easily fit my Precision 5857 above that, as there is still plenty of room. Compound setups are supposed to power up much faster. But, I'm guessing this set up is too difficult with petrol engines as opposed to diesel as knock is not an issue on deisel?
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11-16-2013, 02:00 AM
#92
That was just twin turbo, not sequential. The issue with his setup wasd that it didnt really spool very well for the power it made. By making it sequential, that would solve that issue.
Im sure it still wouldnt make the best top end though.
I dont see how it would make it any more cluttered. It may actually make it easier since the wastegate would create a nice tight 90 for the secondary turbo downpipe (probably the one closest to the firewall).
I think they were GT17s
Im sure it still wouldnt make the best top end though.
I dont see how it would make it any more cluttered. It may actually make it easier since the wastegate would create a nice tight 90 for the secondary turbo downpipe (probably the one closest to the firewall).
I think they were GT17s
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11-16-2013, 03:21 PM
#96
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There are 2 twincharged builds planned. Mine which Dann is currently doing fabrication for that aims to increase the range of available power with decent low rpm torque (supercharger first), and Dann's own which I believe intends to use a supercharger to assist spooling a larger turbocharger in an attempt for outright power from a low capacity engine whilst maintaining driveability (supercharger second).
I've never argued that the SC must go first, and on the contrary I joined the conversation only to query the arqument that I was wrong and it must go on the hot side.
I've already stated I am open to, and will most likely incorporate both methods at some point in time for a comparison on the dyno.
You say I have Dann's hands full with garbage? You're cluttering his thread with the same. It is for serious discussion, I don't see your "contribution" as being anything of the sort to date.
Last edited by Mark-o; 11-16-2013 at 03:32 PM.
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11-16-2013, 06:51 PM
#97
I've never argued that the SC must go first, and on the contrary I joined the conversation only to query the arqument that I was wrong and it must go on the hot side.
I've already stated I am open to, and will most likely incorporate both methods at some point in time for a comparison on the dyno.
I've already stated I am open to, and will most likely incorporate both methods at some point in time for a comparison on the dyno.
Well, it's complicated, the owner wants to feed the turbo with the blower with some odd valving system using high speed actuators and some separate logic based on boost pressure, pressure differential and rpm.
When he arrived I said that I kept the piping simple because it would be temporary, and the then pulled some actuators out and said "well....".
So at this point I don't really understand his exact plans, I will keep everyone updated.
Dann
When he arrived I said that I kept the piping simple because it would be temporary, and the then pulled some actuators out and said "well....".
So at this point I don't really understand his exact plans, I will keep everyone updated.
Dann
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11-16-2013, 09:13 PM
#98
This video is probably already posted somewhere as I've seen it a few times. Anyway; 1.8L supercharger/turbo set up on a Lotus that "supposedly" has the bugs worked out. If it's true, I'm not sure how they have it set up. I could not tell from the video how it is set up, but maybe someone else can get some ideas. Besides the P5857 turbo, I also bought an M62 for like $150 to have sitting around, just in case I can ever figure out how to do a similar arrangement. Probably just a pipe dream (no pun intended).
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11-16-2013, 11:47 PM
#99
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All that was said was I am starting off by building my vehicle in that manner, despite comments that it is wrong to do it that way:
Do you have relevant experience of your own with twincharging? No? Didn't think so. I think you've reached the limits of your useful input, so please go away.
I think I'm pretty much done here.
The Miata enthusiasts may be at the pinnacle of 4cylinder forced induction for road vehicles, but that knowledge clearly does not correlate with my project.
Last edited by Mark-o; 11-17-2013 at 01:38 AM.
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11-17-2013, 09:28 AM
#100
Despite the efforts of many, I feel that I speak for many others whom are watching with undeterred interest. Please do not let the internet gurus **** you off enough to stop posting, as most of the time, they are just trying to stir up conversation, albeit in a 13 year old, I'm gonna bully you way.
I for one love learning new things, and love to see new things being implemented on twenty year old platforms.
I for one love learning new things, and love to see new things being implemented on twenty year old platforms.
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