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Old 11-14-2013, 10:50 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark-o View Post
I appreciate the input, however if you actually understand the plan you will realise:
- The sc14 has an electromagnetic clutch on the supercharger drive pulley. that can be disengaged once the turbocharger is making adequate boost.
- The Supercharger Bypass Valve, currently sized at 80mm opens to allow the turbocharger to freely breathe directly from the airbox.

As you mentioned, the supercharger will limit the amount of air going into the engine to what the actual output of the supercharger is. Up until the point of being bypassed, at which stage it no longer presents an upstream restriction.

As mentioned earlier, I like to try new things so I am all ears for valid arguments/concepts that help me learn and improve the potential.

The main variance I will have from the VW TSI engine is the lack of the "Dynamic compressor operation".
Low revs will be supercharger only, high revs turbocharger only, with a small window of compounded boost at the crossover period.
There will be (at this stage) no programmed logic controlling operational conditions where the supercharger may be engaged based on demand.
Right but still u're stuck with all the extra valves and flaps and what not.

If you want twin charging why not go with a twin turbo setup? Small 20 sized turbo for very very low end and a bigger size for top end. Easier to setup plus more power in the low end.
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:00 PM   #82
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I wouldnt even use different sized turbos. Id use 2 of the same sized turbos and put a really big wastegate on the outlet of one of them.
With the way EWGs have a cracking pressure roughly half of being fully opened it would probably transition very nicely without any complicated bullshit.
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Old 11-14-2013, 11:22 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
I wouldnt even use different sized turbos. Id use 2 of the same sized turbos and put a really big wastegate on the outlet of one of them.
With the way EWGs have a cracking pressure roughly half of being fully opened it would probably transition very nicely without any complicated bullshit.
eh
I'd refer you to turbotims epic twin setup which made no more power or torque or had any better of a powerband than a absurd single running pretty much same everything else.

And I seriously doubt plumbing ewg and adding even more clutter to this setup would drastically change anything.
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Old 11-15-2013, 12:15 AM   #84
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Please do Vlad. I saw the dyno but didnt see any info on what turbos he used.
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Old 11-15-2013, 01:12 AM   #85
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Right but still u're stuck with all the extra valves and flaps and what not.

If you want twin charging why not go with a twin turbo setup? Small 20 sized turbo for very very low end and a bigger size for top end. Easier to setup plus more power in the low end.
I've owned twin turbos before (Toyota soarer/1jz-gte and Subaru Legacy B4/ej25. This time I'm doing something different, we can't all follow the herd.
The potential for a TT setup to make more low end power than the supercharger is questionable, only possibly supported by the poor efficiency of the current supercharger. Compare it a 25year old turbocharger (the same era) and the low end torque delivery of the supercharger comes out on top.

The car has already been supercharged, adding the turbo and bypass components is quite a simple process in the scheme of things.
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Old 11-15-2013, 01:27 AM   #86
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only possibly supported by the poor efficiency of the current supercharger
That and the 10-15hp it takes to turn the damn thing.

Pretty sure you can find a turbo small enough to give you full boost by 1200 rpm. Sure it would run out of breath by probably 3k but thats when u have the next turbo spooling.
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Old 11-15-2013, 01:39 AM   #87
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While I am not entirely against twin charging I see no reason to do it on a ground up build. The best application I have seen was a mini cooper with small OEM SC and a large turbo installed to compliment the blower and raise top end HP. The result was 350whp with stock drivability. That was 10 years ago. With the fast spooling turbos today I see no good reason to twin charge. Kudos to great workmanship though.
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Old 11-15-2013, 03:41 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
eh
I'd refer you to turbotims epic twin setup which made no more power or torque or had any better of a powerband than a absurd single running pretty much same everything else.

And I seriously doubt plumbing ewg and adding even more clutter to this setup would drastically change anything.
That was just twin turbo, not sequential. The issue with his setup wasd that it didnt really spool very well for the power it made. By making it sequential, that would solve that issue.
Im sure it still wouldnt make the best top end though.
I dont see how it would make it any more cluttered. It may actually make it easier since the wastegate would create a nice tight 90 for the secondary turbo downpipe (probably the one closest to the firewall).

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Please do Vlad. I saw the dyno but didnt see any info on what turbos he used.
I think they were GT17s
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Old 11-15-2013, 10:25 AM   #89
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I know that compound turbos can be found on diesel setups, like the ATS turbo image below. My hybrid MSM turbo sits down low just like the stock MSM turbo. I could easily fit my Precision 5857 above that, as there is still plenty of room. Compound setups are supposed to power up much faster. But, I'm guessing this set up is too difficult with petrol engines as opposed to diesel as knock is not an issue on deisel?

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Old 11-15-2013, 11:00 AM   #90
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Just wait a few years


(And you thought EFR was big)
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Old 11-15-2013, 11:01 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by soviet View Post
Just wait a few years


(And you thought EFR was big)
Wait, is that an F1 turbo with ERS? Saweeet, hopefully F1 cars will be making cool compressor surge noises coming out of the corners when the engines are turned all the way up.
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Old 11-16-2013, 03:00 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
That was just twin turbo, not sequential. The issue with his setup wasd that it didnt really spool very well for the power it made. By making it sequential, that would solve that issue.
Im sure it still wouldnt make the best top end though.
I dont see how it would make it any more cluttered. It may actually make it easier since the wastegate would create a nice tight 90 for the secondary turbo downpipe (probably the one closest to the firewall).


I think they were GT17s
Yeah thats a big problem. Gotta be able to close one off at low rpm otherwise you have 2 unspooled turbos.
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Old 11-16-2013, 03:30 AM   #93
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Yeah thats a big problem. Gotta be able to close one off at low rpm otherwise you have 2 unspooled turbos.

Without wanting to sound like I'm trolling, am I reading this correctly? You suggest twin turbochargers because:
Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
Right but still u're stuck with all the extra valves and flaps and what not.
And you're only just realising now that bypassing for sequential operation is a necessity?
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Old 11-16-2013, 12:17 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark-o View Post
Without wanting to sound like I'm trolling, am I reading this correctly? You suggest twin turbochargers because:

And you're only just realising now that bypassing for sequential operation is a necessity?
Perhaps try running a clutch on your turbo belt too while u got danns hands full with garbage...

We're discussing the better way of doing it than ur "oh my gawd my supercharger must go first" vs having it the other way where the turbo goes first.
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Old 11-16-2013, 01:08 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
Perhaps try running a clutch on your turbo belt too while u got danns hands full with garbage...
It already has a clutch on the supercharger belt.

Dann
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Old 11-16-2013, 04:21 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
Perhaps try running a clutch on your turbo belt too while u got danns hands full with garbage...

We're discussing the better way of doing it than ur "oh my gawd my supercharger must go first" vs having it the other way where the turbo goes first.
With that level of negativity, why are you even attempting to be involved in the discussion?

There are 2 twincharged builds planned. Mine which Dann is currently doing fabrication for that aims to increase the range of available power with decent low rpm torque (supercharger first), and Dann's own which I believe intends to use a supercharger to assist spooling a larger turbocharger in an attempt for outright power from a low capacity engine whilst maintaining driveability (supercharger second).

I've never argued that the SC must go first, and on the contrary I joined the conversation only to query the arqument that I was wrong and it must go on the hot side.
I've already stated I am open to, and will most likely incorporate both methods at some point in time for a comparison on the dyno.

You say I have Dann's hands full with garbage? You're cluttering his thread with the same. It is for serious discussion, I don't see your "contribution" as being anything of the sort to date.

Last edited by Mark-o; 11-16-2013 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 11-16-2013, 07:51 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark-o View Post
I've never argued that the SC must go first, and on the contrary I joined the conversation only to query the arqument that I was wrong and it must go on the hot side.
I've already stated I am open to, and will most likely incorporate both methods at some point in time for a comparison on the dyno.
Dont mean to put Dann on the line but he said thats what you wanted... and you show up in this thread wanting exactly that.. I guess i'm wrong for thinking that's what you wanted...

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
Well, it's complicated, the owner wants to feed the turbo with the blower with some odd valving system using high speed actuators and some separate logic based on boost pressure, pressure differential and rpm.

When he arrived I said that I kept the piping simple because it would be temporary, and the then pulled some actuators out and said "well....".

So at this point I don't really understand his exact plans, I will keep everyone updated.

Dann
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Old 11-16-2013, 10:13 PM   #98
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This video is probably already posted somewhere as I've seen it a few times. Anyway; 1.8L supercharger/turbo set up on a Lotus that "supposedly" has the bugs worked out. If it's true, I'm not sure how they have it set up. I could not tell from the video how it is set up, but maybe someone else can get some ideas. Besides the P5857 turbo, I also bought an M62 for like $150 to have sitting around, just in case I can ever figure out how to do a similar arrangement. Probably just a pipe dream (no pun intended).

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Old 11-17-2013, 12:47 AM   #99
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Dont mean to put Dann on the line but he said thats what you wanted... and you show up in this thread wanting exactly that.. I guess i'm wrong for thinking that's what you wanted...
Mate, stop arguing for arguments sake, you clearly have nothing to contribute here so why keep carrying on?
All that was said was I am starting off by building my vehicle in that manner, despite comments that it is wrong to do it that way:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
That doesnt sound good. He needs to feed the supercharger with the turbo.
After plenty of research, I believe this method works for me. I joined the discussion to query/dispute the negative comments that I "need to"/"must" do things differently. Any rebuttal put forward to date regarding other methods haven't shown a full understanding of the project plan.

Do you have relevant experience of your own with twincharging? No? Didn't think so. I think you've reached the limits of your useful input, so please go away.

I think I'm pretty much done here.
The Miata enthusiasts may be at the pinnacle of 4cylinder forced induction for road vehicles, but that knowledge clearly does not correlate with my project.

Last edited by Mark-o; 11-17-2013 at 02:38 AM.
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Old 11-17-2013, 10:28 AM   #100
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Despite the efforts of many, I feel that I speak for many others whom are watching with undeterred interest. Please do not let the internet gurus **** you off enough to stop posting, as most of the time, they are just trying to stir up conversation, albeit in a 13 year old, I'm gonna bully you way.


I for one love learning new things, and love to see new things being implemented on twenty year old platforms.
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