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And another question about heat checking. The internet says if I can't feel the cracks with my fingernail and they don't go to the edge of the rotor I am good to go.
For whatever is worth i have a friend that has an Indy lights team, he tells me that he usually runs an entire season with a set of rotors on PFC 01's , that would ofset its cost somewhat especially if you run expencive rotors, i ordered a set of 01's from OG, then talked to another local guy that runs enduros on a v6 miata and he sugeated i talk to Wendy at porterfield, she told me that theor R-4S street compound will play nice with the PFC 01 and ST 43 compounds (pretty cheap by the way ) and i could swap to street pads and back to race pads without switching or sanding rotors like i was doing when runing DTC's to HPS, so i got a set of each to try.
ok so this is totally subjective but in general, I think what you've read is correct, you don't need to change your rotors the second you see cracks but it is a clear indication it is time to start thinking about a change. higher quality rotors can probably be pushed further vs cheap china rotors, which should probably be changed early. for me, assuming decent rotors are used, I fell ok, letting em go to where by fingernail catches on the crack. (assume the finger is 90 degrees and a normal cut but you gotta use common sense) for the sake of simple, lets say if the crack are as wide as your fingernail or bigger, they need to be replaced before you go on track. cracks the width of a piece of paper or smaller are not a big deal. perhaps order a set to have on hand. usually the small cracks will say that way for at least another day but it really depends on how hard you are using the brakes. the cracks could be fine for a season. I would consider how long it took me to get from new rotors to the first sign of cracks. and then go down hill fast. if that was one day I would certainly not push it. 2 year old Alcons? I would run em till I can fit my fist inside the crack.
I run centric blanks. They are pretty cheap. Last set took about a season (maybe 10 track days) to start checking. And I have a spare set on the shelf ready to go.
What does the PFC01 in the front usually get matched with in the rear?
I run the PFC11 over a Centric Sport rotor with an M-Tuned bracket, balances great with the PFC01 & 11.75 up front.
RE: Cracks - As long as they aren't to the edge it is usually OK, I'd rather swap them early than have an oopsie mid session. More expensive rotors are absolutely worth it if you have the budget, they last significantly longer (among other benefits) than cheaper rotors. I run the cheap stuff so I can test different pads and not lose a bunch of $$$ on fresh rotors each time.
Brake setup: 11.75" mini Cooper rotor. Wilwood dynapros. 200hp+ track car.
I'm not happy with how fast my DTC-60s are wearing in the front. Will other types of pads last longer (PFC, carbotech, etc) or is it just something I need to accept with more power.
I'm happy with how they perform, just would like them to last longer.
Carbotech pads are very rotor-friendly. On a new set of Centric rotors, I have 6 track days running XP10 F and XP8 R, and I cannot see or feel any rotor wear. I can take a photo tonight. Carbotechs cost more than Hawks, but probably not in the long run, as they last longer and don't destroy rotors--especially if you are ducted. They have less initial bite than Hawks, which may be good or bad, depending upon your driving style, and they also have very linear modulation, which helps prevent over-braking during heel-toe. I switched to Carbotech from Hawk about 2 years ago, and laugh at the thought of ever going back.
The only catch is, Carbotech pads do not play well with any friction layer left behind by any other pad. You either need new rotors or newly-turned rotors, or they will be very unhappy.
TH Motorsports sells Carbotech now at very competitive prices with free shipping--especially during holiday sales and with coupon codes. Mazdaspeed Motorsports also carries them and sells the pre-bedded version at the standard version price. You can also buy direct. Just be sure to mention being a member of SCCA or NASA to get a discount.
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Last edited by Steve Dallas; 03-31-2017 at 10:04 PM.
Here is a photo of a Centric rotor that was new when installed with new pads 6 track days ago. To be fair, two of those track days were wet. When I was running Hawk DTC-30s and DTC60s, the same rotor would be quite worn and deeply grooved at this point.
My front pads are XP10s, and my rear pads are XP8s. For your HP level, you would probably want at least XP12s in the front, if not XP20s. There is no harm in calling Carbotech and asking for Mike Jr. to talk things over. I think he is the owner's son, but in any case, he is happy to recommend a pad setup for your car's weight and HP, and your driving style.
This rotor looks just like the ones on my wife's low-mileage Acura, with its thuper gentle ceramic pads:
This one looks even better:
Here is how much front pad is left after those track days:
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Last edited by Steve Dallas; 04-01-2017 at 10:07 PM.
Reason: Moar better pitchers
Hm. OK, question about compounds - more for a "learning" than a "tell me what to run" thing. It's been mentioned that datasheets provided are more or less worthless marketing stuff... how do you choose between them other than guessing? Like, for example, PF01 and DTC60 seem like sort of "this is a normal pad to run" choices that are used a lot by production shaped cars... when do you start moving away from that? Higher power, more downforce? Is it valid to move to higher friction pads to compensate for, say, going from power to non-assisted brakes?
Also, is there any objective comparison between manufacturers, other than the obvious "look what fast people run" sorta thing?
Hm. OK, question about compounds - more for a "learning" than a "tell me what to run" thing. It's been mentioned that datasheets provided are more or less worthless marketing stuff... how do you choose between them other than guessing? Like, for example, PF01 and DTC60 seem like sort of "this is a normal pad to run" choices that are used a lot by production shaped cars... when do you start moving away from that? Higher power, more downforce? Is it valid to move to higher friction pads to compensate for, say, going from power to non-assisted brakes?
Also, is there any objective comparison between manufacturers, other than the obvious "look what fast people run" sorta thing?
Tires Tires Tires.
The tires grip is everything when picking out a pad. Too high of Tq for a tire you will flat spot and lose modulation. too low of torq and you will have excessive heat buildup.
For PFC the 97 and the 11 are the choices we have. for normal racers and track day people, i set the limit at 200QUTG tires. under 200 qutg you'll want the 11. over 200qutg you'll want the 97. the exception are SM racers. naturally, they are running a Hoosier (50qutg) but they select the 97 compounds to prevent over-slowing the cars. they generate higher heat but they are using the brakes very little and that makes heat less of an issue.
__________________ OG Racing
Your Source For Motorsports Safety Equipment WWW.OGRACING.COM
800.934.9112
703.430.3303 info@ogracing.com
Originally Posted by Mobius
Hopefully so, but let's hope it's never necessary. Experiencing your safety gear in action is ... not optimal.
Here is a photo of a Centric rotor that was new when installed with new pads 6 track days ago. To be fair, two of those track days were wet. When I was running Hawk DTC-30s and DTC60s, the same rotor would be quite worn and deeply grooved at this point.
My front pads are XP10s, and my rear pads are XP8s. For your HP level, you would probably want at least XP12s in the front, if not XP20s. There is no harm in calling Carbotech and asking for Mike Jr. to talk things over. I think he is the owner's son, but in any case, he is happy to recommend a pad setup for your car's weight and HP, and your driving style.
This rotor looks just like the ones on my wife's low-mileage Acura, with its thuper gentle ceramic pads:
.
please be aware you have deep groves cut into the rotor, it looks like you have a contamination issue. the transfers layer is only applied to wat looks like 20% of the rotor. far from ideal. what we want to see is an even blue tint threw out the rotor. please do watch your lug holes. as you appear to have a large gap around the lugs. this could cause the rotor to rock back and forth cutting your lugs. if you ignore that for too long it can cause a wheel to pop off during competition.
__________________ OG Racing
Your Source For Motorsports Safety Equipment WWW.OGRACING.COM
800.934.9112
703.430.3303 info@ogracing.com
Originally Posted by Mobius
Hopefully so, but let's hope it's never necessary. Experiencing your safety gear in action is ... not optimal.
And another question about heat checking. The internet says if I can't feel the cracks with my fingernail and they don't go to the edge of the rotor I am good to go.
Any disagreements here?
exactly true. once you can get a nail in there it's time to replace.
Originally Posted by aidandj
What does the PFC01 in the front usually get matched with in the rear?
run them square. same compound front and rear. during the pfc 11/01 transition, it is OK to use the 11's in the rear and the 01 in the front. the Tq output is very similar and can be swapped. eventually, everything will be 11 compound.
__________________ OG Racing
Your Source For Motorsports Safety Equipment WWW.OGRACING.COM
800.934.9112
703.430.3303 info@ogracing.com
Originally Posted by Mobius
Hopefully so, but let's hope it's never necessary. Experiencing your safety gear in action is ... not optimal.
The tires grip is everything when picking out a pad. Too high of Tq for a tire you will flat spot and lose modulation. too low of torq and you will have excessive heat buildup.
For PFC the 97 and the 11 are the choices we have. for normal racers and track day people, i set the limit at 200QUTG tires. under 200 qutg you'll want the 11. over 200qutg you'll want the 97. the exception are SM racers. naturally, they are running a Hoosier (50qutg) but they select the 97 compounds to prevent over-slowing the cars. they generate higher heat but they are using the brakes very little and that makes heat less of an issue.
Doh. Yeah, tires. Silly me.
That said, stepping outside of Miata caliper availability... I mean it's obvious from the description what PFC 13's for, 14 sounds like a new version of the same thing that 97 was intended for (but I'm seeing 97's supposedly being replaced by 11 or 12)... are 08 and 12 "just" endurance optimized versions of 11 with further optimizations depending on how cool you can keep the discs?
I figure that pad manufacturers will definitely know internally "our pad X does better than our pad Y for this or that application" and I'm trying to figure out how to use that to translate the various marketing verbiage. I could just run PF11 on everything, but I'm going to be running an NC for a while, and the D1179/1180 shape limits options a little.
03-24-2017, 09:01 PM
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