miataturbo.net-like debauchery thread (about the ND or something)
#702
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It was a joke. I didnt do it the way you said because its stupid. Power is not a significant factor is the sale of a car like this.
Here something real to consider
If the 220 lb weight savings is accurate, even with 155hp the power to weight ratio will be almost exactly the same as the NC. It probably wont beat an NC in a drag race, but Im certain it will faster around a road course.
The fact that a new version of a car is lighter than the previous is borderline miraculous. With the way things have been going I was pretty sure all cars were going to get heavier indefinitely until I stopped caring about new cars entirely.
Here something real to consider
If the 220 lb weight savings is accurate, even with 155hp the power to weight ratio will be almost exactly the same as the NC. It probably wont beat an NC in a drag race, but Im certain it will faster around a road course.
The fact that a new version of a car is lighter than the previous is borderline miraculous. With the way things have been going I was pretty sure all cars were going to get heavier indefinitely until I stopped caring about new cars entirely.
#709
I am a broken record. It doesn't matter if you think HP doesn't matter for this car, because how is losing HP from the same displacement not pathetic? The compression is 2.2 points higher alone. Yes, it runs on 87 octane, but if your argument is that a buyer for this car balks at paying for premium, but doesn't balk at industry trailing HP, then I don't follow.
#710
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So why won't Mazda put a real engine into the MX chassis? What sales are they afraid of eating into? They having nothing higher in the food chain that would be cannibalized. Meanwhile every other manufacturer has offerings with much more power.
I get the lightweight "I'm a Katana, watch me slice and dice" concept. How is that spoiled by "I'm a Katana, I can slice and dice, and oh yeah watch me launch like a rocket" ?
How does putting a real engine into the MX do anything for Mazda but make gobs of money?
#711
I give up. Why? It has been shown that the chassis is good for 500hp V8's making gobs of torque.
So why won't Mazda put a real engine into the MX chassis? What sales are they afraid of eating into? They having nothing higher in the food chain that would be cannibalized. Meanwhile every other manufacturer has offerings with much more power.
I get the lightweight "I'm a Katana, watch me slice and dice" concept. How is that spoiled by "I'm a Katana, I can slice and dice, and oh yeah watch me launch like a rocket" ?
How does putting a real engine into the MX do anything for Mazda but make gobs of money?
So why won't Mazda put a real engine into the MX chassis? What sales are they afraid of eating into? They having nothing higher in the food chain that would be cannibalized. Meanwhile every other manufacturer has offerings with much more power.
I get the lightweight "I'm a Katana, watch me slice and dice" concept. How is that spoiled by "I'm a Katana, I can slice and dice, and oh yeah watch me launch like a rocket" ?
How does putting a real engine into the MX do anything for Mazda but make gobs of money?
It's like Mazda doesn't want the modern Miata to succeed like it did initially. If the Miata would have FR-S/BRZ power levels, it would sweep the market for the lower-tier sports cars.
Does Mazda have some sort of ridiculously low Lb/HP threshold that they have internally set as a design criteria for the Miata?
None of this matters, enthusiasts will obviously not change Mazda's mind about this. Mazda will add power when they see it's necessary. Bitching about it won't help.
I will applaud Mazda for continuing the technological advancement of efficiency using advanced technologies and designs of N/A engines and not strictly relying on electrification of the drivetrain or boosting their motors, but at some point, they need to bring some HP to the field. They are absolutely capable of 100HP/L, yet will not bring this to the market for their only true sports car.
#712
Just a hypothetical - If Mazda had released the car for the U.S. Market with a 1.5L DI engine making the same power as the 2.0 would we be complaining like we are here?
Or conversely, what if the Fiat Abarth engine was in this car? 1.4L, 160hp, 170lb/ft torque? Would we be thrilled or just merely satisfied?
I think Mazda made a mistake. Not one that will matter substantially because the market is so full of "interesting" cars these days. To me it's not the HP/TQ numbers that bother me so much as that they did it with a larger engine than I was expecting.
I will be going to the Chicago launch of the Miata at the auto show next Friday. There will be Mazda executives and the media there. I plan on telling anyone who will listen how I feel.
Or conversely, what if the Fiat Abarth engine was in this car? 1.4L, 160hp, 170lb/ft torque? Would we be thrilled or just merely satisfied?
I think Mazda made a mistake. Not one that will matter substantially because the market is so full of "interesting" cars these days. To me it's not the HP/TQ numbers that bother me so much as that they did it with a larger engine than I was expecting.
I will be going to the Chicago launch of the Miata at the auto show next Friday. There will be Mazda executives and the media there. I plan on telling anyone who will listen how I feel.
#713
I don't know that a FWD engine won't fit in a RWD application properly without changing the manifolds? Uh, yes I do, I took that as a given that everyone would understand that.
How can anyone defend the SAME DISPLACEMENT engine making less HP than before, regardless of weight loss?
How can anyone defend the SAME DISPLACEMENT engine making less HP than before, regardless of weight loss?
Because the MZR won't meet CAFE regulations in 5-10 years? This isn't a rough concept.
#714
Mazda's a smaller auto manufacturer and they've almost lost the farm twice due to the science fair project being a colossal turd (rotaries are neat, but they've bankrupted Mazda almost twice now).
Other car manufacturers like Honda have some room to breathe and have the expertise (motorcycle and F1 divisions, for example) to crank out some pretty amazing motors (F series). However, Mazda doesn't have the luxury of having institutional knowledge to make screamer motors, and ignoring the Miata's history kind of invalidates the whole argument about HP/L. The Miata formula has always been a brilliant chassis with a pedestrian/borderline awful motor. I'm not being an apologist, this is a fact. The Mazda B motor is a ******* turd; the MZR is definitely a lot better.
Mazda can definitely make a motor that revs up to 9k and makes 100+HP/L; however, they don't have the economies of scale and it makes the business case for a niche product even more unreasonable. The Miata is what funded both the RX-7 and RX-8, both of them are brilliant cars, but the rotary is purely in the enthusiast's market and Mazda lost a boatload of money on them.
Ultimately the discussion about the ND comes down to a bunch of people concern trolling and listing off every reason why they're not going to buy the car. Hint: They were never going to buy one in the first place. I'm definitely bummed that the car isn't going to make marginally more power, but I'm not going to spend all day whining about how a Toyota Sienna does a 14 second quarter.
After doing the VVT swap into my NA, I'm ready to have a car that's "nice" and not modified. The Miata has always had a brilliant chassis, but modifying them to an inch of their life is definitely stressful. I just want to get 35+mpg and have a nice, modern car that resembles the first NA that I bought back in 2007.
Other car manufacturers like Honda have some room to breathe and have the expertise (motorcycle and F1 divisions, for example) to crank out some pretty amazing motors (F series). However, Mazda doesn't have the luxury of having institutional knowledge to make screamer motors, and ignoring the Miata's history kind of invalidates the whole argument about HP/L. The Miata formula has always been a brilliant chassis with a pedestrian/borderline awful motor. I'm not being an apologist, this is a fact. The Mazda B motor is a ******* turd; the MZR is definitely a lot better.
Mazda can definitely make a motor that revs up to 9k and makes 100+HP/L; however, they don't have the economies of scale and it makes the business case for a niche product even more unreasonable. The Miata is what funded both the RX-7 and RX-8, both of them are brilliant cars, but the rotary is purely in the enthusiast's market and Mazda lost a boatload of money on them.
Ultimately the discussion about the ND comes down to a bunch of people concern trolling and listing off every reason why they're not going to buy the car. Hint: They were never going to buy one in the first place. I'm definitely bummed that the car isn't going to make marginally more power, but I'm not going to spend all day whining about how a Toyota Sienna does a 14 second quarter.
After doing the VVT swap into my NA, I'm ready to have a car that's "nice" and not modified. The Miata has always had a brilliant chassis, but modifying them to an inch of their life is definitely stressful. I just want to get 35+mpg and have a nice, modern car that resembles the first NA that I bought back in 2007.
#716
So it looks like this thread is a couple Mazda apologists vs. the rest of the world. Rightly so.
Yes, and failing to understand why is also why the shills on M.net can't even be bothered to look past their very rose-tinted glasses.
HP/L is a common airflow metric, just like torque to the contact patch vs. vehicle mass. This is similar to battery comparison metrics: Wh/Lb and Wh/in^3, one is energy vs mass, and the other energy vs. volume.
Citing solely engine mass is irrelevant for the big picture; it's the vehicle mass that's relevant. Tesla isn't bragging about how light their motors are, because at this point the batteries need to be very heavy. So, like a good scientist you look at total mass, not piecemeal tidbits.
Speaking of looking at the big picture, Mazda is using it's full marketing prowess to convince us that 1990 = 2015. How is that good? Lowering the customers expectations in the religious name of "purity" is a horseshit cop-out for failing to raise the bar. The Miata in stock form has always been slow compared to the industry average, but now it's going to be slower than ever, as shown by the Miata HP below average graph Ryan_G posted above. Comparing the ND to the NA is firmly throwing in the towel for progress, and that's not something I will accept, even accounting for Mazda's relative lack of R&D resources.
Also, keep in mind the demographic of this website. We're all here because we all believe the Miata is too slow in stock form, hence turbocharging.
To put it simply, Leafy has it spot-on. Power numbers gets Murican's panties wet. 155HP isn't dropping any panties in 2015.
It would be acceptable. Room for more power if desired, fantastic exhaust note, still cheap to own.
When I saw the ND mule in person, and seeing the 1.4T Multiair under the hood, I expected Mazda to use that engine. I nearly got banned on m.net for sharing that experience because the shills and trolls "couldn't even" that the car existed.
I'm not so sure, there appear to be a lot of dissappointed people beyond m.net. I was genuinely looking to have a 2 Miata garage. I guess I'm not surprised Mazda put what appears to be the old 2.0 4-1 header skyactiv in the ND, but I am still crushed they chose to not use the Multiair, because it would've undoubtedly been a much better car. I'll either wait for the Fiat version and hope they didn't screw that up a different way or go another route.
I believe you've missed the point of the motor.....
And it makes MORE power than the BP. It weighs less than a BP. HP/L is ricer math.
Are we really complaining about a car that has better power/weight than either NA or NB, AND will get gas mileage that will shame those cars? Is this what we're doing?
And it makes MORE power than the BP. It weighs less than a BP. HP/L is ricer math.
Are we really complaining about a car that has better power/weight than either NA or NB, AND will get gas mileage that will shame those cars? Is this what we're doing?
HP/L is a common airflow metric, just like torque to the contact patch vs. vehicle mass. This is similar to battery comparison metrics: Wh/Lb and Wh/in^3, one is energy vs mass, and the other energy vs. volume.
Citing solely engine mass is irrelevant for the big picture; it's the vehicle mass that's relevant. Tesla isn't bragging about how light their motors are, because at this point the batteries need to be very heavy. So, like a good scientist you look at total mass, not piecemeal tidbits.
Speaking of looking at the big picture, Mazda is using it's full marketing prowess to convince us that 1990 = 2015. How is that good? Lowering the customers expectations in the religious name of "purity" is a horseshit cop-out for failing to raise the bar. The Miata in stock form has always been slow compared to the industry average, but now it's going to be slower than ever, as shown by the Miata HP below average graph Ryan_G posted above. Comparing the ND to the NA is firmly throwing in the towel for progress, and that's not something I will accept, even accounting for Mazda's relative lack of R&D resources.
Also, keep in mind the demographic of this website. We're all here because we all believe the Miata is too slow in stock form, hence turbocharging.
To put it simply, Leafy has it spot-on. Power numbers gets Murican's panties wet. 155HP isn't dropping any panties in 2015.
When I saw the ND mule in person, and seeing the 1.4T Multiair under the hood, I expected Mazda to use that engine. I nearly got banned on m.net for sharing that experience because the shills and trolls "couldn't even" that the car existed.
...
Ultimately the discussion about the ND comes down to a bunch of people concern trolling and listing off every reason why they're not going to buy the car. Hint: They were never going to buy one in the first place. I'm definitely bummed that the car isn't going to make marginally more power, but I'm not going to spend all day whining about how a Toyota Sienna does a 14 second quarter.
...
Ultimately the discussion about the ND comes down to a bunch of people concern trolling and listing off every reason why they're not going to buy the car. Hint: They were never going to buy one in the first place. I'm definitely bummed that the car isn't going to make marginally more power, but I'm not going to spend all day whining about how a Toyota Sienna does a 14 second quarter.
...
#719
Sure, i get it. I'd be moist in my panties right now if it had 300hp.
But i'd also be far less likely to buy it if it had 300hp, because it would be heavier and cost more.
I don't really care if anyone else likes it or not, but it's fun to discuss and poke fun at things.
I like it either way, and that's all that matters to me.
But i'd also be far less likely to buy it if it had 300hp, because it would be heavier and cost more.
I don't really care if anyone else likes it or not, but it's fun to discuss and poke fun at things.
I like it either way, and that's all that matters to me.
#720
I'm definitely bummed that the car isn't going to make marginally more power, but I'm not going to spend all day whining about how a Toyota Sienna does a 14 second quarter.
After doing the VVT swap into my NA, I'm ready to have a car that's "nice" and not modified. The Miata has always had a brilliant chassis, but modifying them to an inch of their life is definitely stressful. I just want to get 35+mpg and have a nice, modern car that resembles the first NA that I bought back in 2007.
After doing the VVT swap into my NA, I'm ready to have a car that's "nice" and not modified. The Miata has always had a brilliant chassis, but modifying them to an inch of their life is definitely stressful. I just want to get 35+mpg and have a nice, modern car that resembles the first NA that I bought back in 2007.