miataturbo.net-like debauchery thread (about the ND or something) - Page 36 - Miata Turbo Forum -Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 02-05-2015, 10:09 PM   #701
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
Okay I have figured it out. It all makes sense when you plot US sales vs Miata horsepower through the generations



MOAR POWER = LESS SALES

They should have just put the B6 back in there.
thats not even close, theres a huge bump in sales when the power goes up. Instead take the average hp figure of all cars (pretty sure that number is kicking around), subtract the miata power from that number, then divide by the average yearly hp and plot that.
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Old 02-05-2015, 10:36 PM   #702
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It was a joke. I didnt do it the way you said because its stupid. Power is not a significant factor is the sale of a car like this.

Here something real to consider



If the 220 lb weight savings is accurate, even with 155hp the power to weight ratio will be almost exactly the same as the NC. It probably wont beat an NC in a drag race, but Im certain it will faster around a road course.

The fact that a new version of a car is lighter than the previous is borderline miraculous. With the way things have been going I was pretty sure all cars were going to get heavier indefinitely until I stopped caring about new cars entirely.
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Old 02-05-2015, 10:37 PM   #703
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Yeah but no one cares about that. This is murica, horse power sells.
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Old 02-05-2015, 10:47 PM   #704
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Avg horsepower data is taken from the 2014 report issued by the EPA excluding trucks. Including trucks would increase the avg hp in every year.
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miataturbo.net-like debauchery thread (about the ND or something)-untitled_zpsfaj0ymzn.jpg  
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Old 02-05-2015, 10:55 PM   #705
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Wow that seems to correlate more than I was expecting.
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Old 02-05-2015, 11:01 PM   #706
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It doesnt matter. None of this matters.
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Old 02-05-2015, 11:06 PM   #707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
It doesnt matter. None of this matters.
No, it does. And thats the point. I'm sure this car is going to be fast as **** on the track and kick the crap out of the BRZ stock for stock. But on one cares. This is murica, hp sells cars.
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Old 02-05-2015, 11:17 PM   #708
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Leafy speaks truth.
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Old 02-05-2015, 11:17 PM   #709
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I am a broken record. It doesn't matter if you think HP doesn't matter for this car, because how is losing HP from the same displacement not pathetic? The compression is 2.2 points higher alone. Yes, it runs on 87 octane, but if your argument is that a buyer for this car balks at paying for premium, but doesn't balk at industry trailing HP, then I don't follow.
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Old 02-05-2015, 11:24 PM   #710
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbofan View Post
Sure. But it's really a pointless discussion at this point. Mazda won't build a truly powerful Miata,
I give up. Why? It has been shown that the chassis is good for 500hp V8's making gobs of torque.

So why won't Mazda put a real engine into the MX chassis? What sales are they afraid of eating into? They having nothing higher in the food chain that would be cannibalized. Meanwhile every other manufacturer has offerings with much more power.

I get the lightweight "I'm a Katana, watch me slice and dice" concept. How is that spoiled by "I'm a Katana, I can slice and dice, and oh yeah watch me launch like a rocket" ?

How does putting a real engine into the MX do anything for Mazda but make gobs of money?
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Old 02-06-2015, 12:56 AM   #711
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mobius View Post
I give up. Why? It has been shown that the chassis is good for 500hp V8's making gobs of torque.

So why won't Mazda put a real engine into the MX chassis? What sales are they afraid of eating into? They having nothing higher in the food chain that would be cannibalized. Meanwhile every other manufacturer has offerings with much more power.

I get the lightweight "I'm a Katana, watch me slice and dice" concept. How is that spoiled by "I'm a Katana, I can slice and dice, and oh yeah watch me launch like a rocket" ?

How does putting a real engine into the MX do anything for Mazda but make gobs of money?
I totally agree. I thought about doing the same thing Leafy suggested when I was at work earlier, but I don't have time to screw around at work. Comparing HP deficiency to the average car vs. sales shows you what's missing. HP.

It's like Mazda doesn't want the modern Miata to succeed like it did initially. If the Miata would have FR-S/BRZ power levels, it would sweep the market for the lower-tier sports cars.

Does Mazda have some sort of ridiculously low Lb/HP threshold that they have internally set as a design criteria for the Miata?

None of this matters, enthusiasts will obviously not change Mazda's mind about this. Mazda will add power when they see it's necessary. Bitching about it won't help.

I will applaud Mazda for continuing the technological advancement of efficiency using advanced technologies and designs of N/A engines and not strictly relying on electrification of the drivetrain or boosting their motors, but at some point, they need to bring some HP to the field. They are absolutely capable of 100HP/L, yet will not bring this to the market for their only true sports car.
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Old 02-06-2015, 10:45 AM   #712
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Just a hypothetical - If Mazda had released the car for the U.S. Market with a 1.5L DI engine making the same power as the 2.0 would we be complaining like we are here?

Or conversely, what if the Fiat Abarth engine was in this car? 1.4L, 160hp, 170lb/ft torque? Would we be thrilled or just merely satisfied?

I think Mazda made a mistake. Not one that will matter substantially because the market is so full of "interesting" cars these days. To me it's not the HP/TQ numbers that bother me so much as that they did it with a larger engine than I was expecting.

I will be going to the Chicago launch of the Miata at the auto show next Friday. There will be Mazda executives and the media there. I plan on telling anyone who will listen how I feel.
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Old 02-06-2015, 11:20 AM   #713
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Originally Posted by Chilicharger665 View Post
I don't know that a FWD engine won't fit in a RWD application properly without changing the manifolds? Uh, yes I do, I took that as a given that everyone would understand that.

How can anyone defend the SAME DISPLACEMENT engine making less HP than before, regardless of weight loss?

Because the MZR won't meet CAFE regulations in 5-10 years? This isn't a rough concept.
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Old 02-06-2015, 11:20 AM   #714
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Mazda's a smaller auto manufacturer and they've almost lost the farm twice due to the science fair project being a colossal turd (rotaries are neat, but they've bankrupted Mazda almost twice now).

Other car manufacturers like Honda have some room to breathe and have the expertise (motorcycle and F1 divisions, for example) to crank out some pretty amazing motors (F series). However, Mazda doesn't have the luxury of having institutional knowledge to make screamer motors, and ignoring the Miata's history kind of invalidates the whole argument about HP/L. The Miata formula has always been a brilliant chassis with a pedestrian/borderline awful motor. I'm not being an apologist, this is a fact. The Mazda B motor is a ******* turd; the MZR is definitely a lot better.

Mazda can definitely make a motor that revs up to 9k and makes 100+HP/L; however, they don't have the economies of scale and it makes the business case for a niche product even more unreasonable. The Miata is what funded both the RX-7 and RX-8, both of them are brilliant cars, but the rotary is purely in the enthusiast's market and Mazda lost a boatload of money on them.

Ultimately the discussion about the ND comes down to a bunch of people concern trolling and listing off every reason why they're not going to buy the car. Hint: They were never going to buy one in the first place. I'm definitely bummed that the car isn't going to make marginally more power, but I'm not going to spend all day whining about how a Toyota Sienna does a 14 second quarter.

After doing the VVT swap into my NA, I'm ready to have a car that's "nice" and not modified. The Miata has always had a brilliant chassis, but modifying them to an inch of their life is definitely stressful. I just want to get 35+mpg and have a nice, modern car that resembles the first NA that I bought back in 2007.
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Old 02-06-2015, 11:22 AM   #715
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
Okay I have figured it out. It all makes sense when you plot US sales vs Miata horsepower through the generations



MOAR POWER = LESS SALES

They should have just put the B6 back in there.

1.6 swap? - MX-5 Miata Forum

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Old 02-06-2015, 11:35 AM   #716
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So it looks like this thread is a couple Mazda apologists vs. the rest of the world. Rightly so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by concealer404 View Post
I believe you've missed the point of the motor.....
And it makes MORE power than the BP. It weighs less than a BP. HP/L is ricer math.

Are we really complaining about a car that has better power/weight than either NA or NB, AND will get gas mileage that will shame those cars? Is this what we're doing?
Yes, and failing to understand why is also why the shills on M.net can't even be bothered to look past their very rose-tinted glasses.

HP/L is a common airflow metric, just like torque to the contact patch vs. vehicle mass. This is similar to battery comparison metrics: Wh/Lb and Wh/in^3, one is energy vs mass, and the other energy vs. volume.

Citing solely engine mass is irrelevant for the big picture; it's the vehicle mass that's relevant. Tesla isn't bragging about how light their motors are, because at this point the batteries need to be very heavy. So, like a good scientist you look at total mass, not piecemeal tidbits.

Speaking of looking at the big picture, Mazda is using it's full marketing prowess to convince us that 1990 = 2015. How is that good? Lowering the customers expectations in the religious name of "purity" is a horseshit cop-out for failing to raise the bar. The Miata in stock form has always been slow compared to the industry average, but now it's going to be slower than ever, as shown by the Miata HP below average graph Ryan_G posted above. Comparing the ND to the NA is firmly throwing in the towel for progress, and that's not something I will accept, even accounting for Mazda's relative lack of R&D resources.

Also, keep in mind the demographic of this website. We're all here because we all believe the Miata is too slow in stock form, hence turbocharging.

To put it simply, Leafy has it spot-on. Power numbers gets Murican's panties wet. 155HP isn't dropping any panties in 2015.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiburbian View Post
...
Or conversely, what if the Fiat Abarth engine was in this car? 1.4L, 160hp, 170lb/ft torque? Would we be thrilled or just merely satisfied?...
It would be acceptable. Room for more power if desired, fantastic exhaust note, still cheap to own.

When I saw the ND mule in person, and seeing the 1.4T Multiair under the hood, I expected Mazda to use that engine. I nearly got banned on m.net for sharing that experience because the shills and trolls "couldn't even" that the car existed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect View Post
...
Ultimately the discussion about the ND comes down to a bunch of people concern trolling and listing off every reason why they're not going to buy the car. Hint: They were never going to buy one in the first place. I'm definitely bummed that the car isn't going to make marginally more power, but I'm not going to spend all day whining about how a Toyota Sienna does a 14 second quarter.
...
I'm not so sure, there appear to be a lot of dissappointed people beyond m.net. I was genuinely looking to have a 2 Miata garage. I guess I'm not surprised Mazda put what appears to be the old 2.0 4-1 header skyactiv in the ND, but I am still crushed they chose to not use the Multiair, because it would've undoubtedly been a much better car. I'll either wait for the Fiat version and hope they didn't screw that up a different way or go another route.
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Old 02-06-2015, 11:38 AM   #717
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The graph to plot is front engine, rear drive, two-seat convertibles on the market versus Miata sales. There are many more competitors since Mazda proved it was a viable market segment.
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Old 02-06-2015, 11:39 AM   #718
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Most of the people here have seen the light of natural aspiration, to be quite honest. :v
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Old 02-06-2015, 11:41 AM   #719
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Sure, i get it. I'd be moist in my panties right now if it had 300hp.

But i'd also be far less likely to buy it if it had 300hp, because it would be heavier and cost more.

I don't really care if anyone else likes it or not, but it's fun to discuss and poke fun at things.

I like it either way, and that's all that matters to me.
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Old 02-06-2015, 11:47 AM   #720
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunning Kruger Affect View Post
Ultimately the discussion about the ND comes down to a bunch of people concern trolling and listing off every reason why they're not going to buy the car. Hint: They were never going to buy one in the first place.
Despite all my complaining I would still likely by an ND new off the showroom floor after the first year kinks have been worked out. I think the car is going to be an amazing platform but that doesn't mean I am content with a lackluster engine.

Quote:
I'm definitely bummed that the car isn't going to make marginally more power, but I'm not going to spend all day whining about how a Toyota Sienna does a 14 second quarter.

After doing the VVT swap into my NA, I'm ready to have a car that's "nice" and not modified. The Miata has always had a brilliant chassis, but modifying them to an inch of their life is definitely stressful. I just want to get 35+mpg and have a nice, modern car that resembles the first NA that I bought back in 2007.
Not having to modify the car from stock is the main reason everyone is shouting more power from the factory. If I buy this car new why the **** would I want to have to void the warranty to pass people or merge quickly on the highway and just generally have more fun in the car.
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