ROTARY swap
03-01-2010, 06:47 PM
#101
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I said wrong to your post stating how 13B's "do nothing well."
They can turbocharge reliably, they have a rep for not being such due to the hugely complicated TT setup on the FD's that frequently broke down, and poorly modified FC's that did the same. There is a sizable contingent of original engine'd FB's running around in excess of 150,000 and 200,000 miles, and FC's are not unknown to behave as such once the achille's heel of the thermal pellet is fixed.
The don't turbo charge any more unreliably than any other engine, given an intelligent owner and proper tuning. True they do not take well to detonation, but a well sorted engine ought not do this anyhow. Just go talk to a REAL racing team that field a rotary and try to tell them their engine if fragile...
They'll laugh at you. All of the serious SCCA guys I know rate their engines in SEASONS till failure while their competition rates theirs by RACES. If preignition is avoided, they are an extremely robust engine, especially under the rigors of competition.
Furthermore, well built examples, while not known for their stump pulling torque curve, are known to lay down a torque plot as flat as kansas, making for a very pleasing driver.
And finally, they're just so damn easy to work on, and actually pretty cheap, barring ceramic apex seals. Stay with steelies and used parts, and you can go a long way for your money.
They are not however: magic or any better than a v8, and a swap using one is just as you said, a fabrication exercise. Strictly comparing the 1.6's and 1.8's in miatas, they are FAR easier to get to 400whp, but I think a 400whp miata is a waste of time, and stock ANYTHING is more reliable than a modded 1.8 or a 13b, so V8's win there too.
They can turbocharge reliably, they have a rep for not being such due to the hugely complicated TT setup on the FD's that frequently broke down, and poorly modified FC's that did the same. There is a sizable contingent of original engine'd FB's running around in excess of 150,000 and 200,000 miles, and FC's are not unknown to behave as such once the achille's heel of the thermal pellet is fixed.
The don't turbo charge any more unreliably than any other engine, given an intelligent owner and proper tuning. True they do not take well to detonation, but a well sorted engine ought not do this anyhow. Just go talk to a REAL racing team that field a rotary and try to tell them their engine if fragile...
They'll laugh at you. All of the serious SCCA guys I know rate their engines in SEASONS till failure while their competition rates theirs by RACES. If preignition is avoided, they are an extremely robust engine, especially under the rigors of competition.
Furthermore, well built examples, while not known for their stump pulling torque curve, are known to lay down a torque plot as flat as kansas, making for a very pleasing driver.
And finally, they're just so damn easy to work on, and actually pretty cheap, barring ceramic apex seals. Stay with steelies and used parts, and you can go a long way for your money.
They are not however: magic or any better than a v8, and a swap using one is just as you said, a fabrication exercise. Strictly comparing the 1.6's and 1.8's in miatas, they are FAR easier to get to 400whp, but I think a 400whp miata is a waste of time, and stock ANYTHING is more reliable than a modded 1.8 or a 13b, so V8's win there too.
The OP still has about a 1% chance of actually doing this and this thread is still ******* hilarious, but a lot of people dont know **** about rotaries. Which is fine, (who gives a ****?) but:
One thing I will also point out: A lot of folks are talking about how the Rotrex is pretty cool. It is. Compare a Rotrexed BP dyno to a 13B dyno. Rotrex cars are not exactly slow.
Rotaries are victims of the same **** that has hit Hondas and DSMs. Dumbshit kids who havent a clue what a clue is who go modding them. Thus they got demolished in large numbers and in remarkably stupid ways. Are they better than a LS1? Hell no. But they are not a failure either. Not having a valve train to worry about can be a pretty big asset.
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03-01-2010, 06:50 PM
#102
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None of which helps a 13B or makes this build any more plausible, but......
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03-01-2010, 09:06 PM
#103
I love all the rotary hate. It seems like people that have no experience with them always have the most animosity towards them. Naturally aspirated rotaries can be very reliable when maintained well. Turbo rotaries can also be very reliable when tuned and maintained properly. As reliable as a honda engine? Probably not, but rotaries definitely have their place. My 87 turbo rx7 was very mechanically reliable, unfortunately the electronics on the car weren't the best.
There's a reason rotaries have been banned in lots of motorsport series, they definitely have some advantages (and disadvantages). Personally I think a rotary miata would be pretty cool. Would it have the best cost to performance ratio? Absolutely not, but I still think it would be a very fun car to drive.
One thing that has always intrigued me is what might have come of the rotary engine if more companies had embraced it. The otto cycle piston engine has had hundreds of companies performing r&d on it for the last 100+ years to get it to where it is today. Gazillions of dollars have been spent on r&d for piston engines. In contrast the rotary engine has had one small japanese company (and one tiny german motorcycle manufacturer, and gm for a few years, etc.) spend just a fraction of it's r&d budget on it for barely 50 years. How good would the rotary engine be if 10% of the piston engine r&d budget of all companies was spent on rotary r&d for the last 50 years?
Anyone, OP good luck...
There's a reason rotaries have been banned in lots of motorsport series, they definitely have some advantages (and disadvantages). Personally I think a rotary miata would be pretty cool. Would it have the best cost to performance ratio? Absolutely not, but I still think it would be a very fun car to drive.
One thing that has always intrigued me is what might have come of the rotary engine if more companies had embraced it. The otto cycle piston engine has had hundreds of companies performing r&d on it for the last 100+ years to get it to where it is today. Gazillions of dollars have been spent on r&d for piston engines. In contrast the rotary engine has had one small japanese company (and one tiny german motorcycle manufacturer, and gm for a few years, etc.) spend just a fraction of it's r&d budget on it for barely 50 years. How good would the rotary engine be if 10% of the piston engine r&d budget of all companies was spent on rotary r&d for the last 50 years?
Anyone, OP good luck...
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03-30-2010, 06:01 PM
#106
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Look up how many v8 miatas are out there, then go and look up how many rotary miatas there are......thats why there isnt a deticated rotary section or forum. Maybe you should be the pioneer. Do the swap, make a build thread, and show us how its done. Just don't be mad when a boosted 1.6 is faster 
then if it is a gleaming failure I will be the first to let you know, but motor and tranny with a centerforce clutch is already there so why not take a shot at it? and its a turbo II with an upgraded turbo/injectors... should be quick, but if it spits parts on the track I will be the first to tell you...
aren't these forums all about sharing the information one person has with another in a quasi like-minded environment... I'd say mine qualify's because it is a turbo miata... minus the pistons.
that being said wouldn't it interest at least a few parties out there if there were a definitive successful build? there are a few non turbo builds and a couple turbo but nothing shared on this forum yet... I would like to do it, but is there seriously no interest in a build thread?
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03-30-2010, 06:05 PM
#107
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I'll take a stab at it...... I have the car, motor and tranny to go in it off a fresh rebuild, and the ENTIRE ECU/Wiring Harness, from the Tail Light Bulbs to the wipers.... this guy was very thorough...
then if it is a gleaming failure I will be the first to let you know, but motor and tranny with a centerforce clutch is already there so why not take a shot at it? and its a turbo II with an upgraded turbo/injectors... should be quick, but if it spits parts on the track I will be the first to tell you...
aren't these forums all about sharing the information one person has with another in a quasi like-minded environment... I'd say mine qualify's because it is a turbo miata... minus the pistons.
that being said wouldn't it interest at least a few parties out there if there were a definitive successful build? there are a few non turbo builds and a couple turbo but nothing shared on this forum yet... I would like to do it, but is there seriously no interest in a build thread?
then if it is a gleaming failure I will be the first to let you know, but motor and tranny with a centerforce clutch is already there so why not take a shot at it? and its a turbo II with an upgraded turbo/injectors... should be quick, but if it spits parts on the track I will be the first to tell you...
aren't these forums all about sharing the information one person has with another in a quasi like-minded environment... I'd say mine qualify's because it is a turbo miata... minus the pistons.
that being said wouldn't it interest at least a few parties out there if there were a definitive successful build? there are a few non turbo builds and a couple turbo but nothing shared on this forum yet... I would like to do it, but is there seriously no interest in a build thread?
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03-30-2010, 06:10 PM
#108
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If you are so adimant about getting a miata/rotory there is one for sale in La ca. on craigslist. Don't know more info you can look it up. All the work is done for you.
Hvae a great day,
Jared
Hvae a great day,
Jared
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03-30-2010, 06:15 PM
#109
Honestly, I'm interested.
I would like somebody who says they are going to do it actually follow through.
We see a dozen of these threads each year, and it would absolutely floor me to see a Stein-like documentation of a successful build.
The end result would be interesting as well, even if not the best of anything.
I would like somebody who says they are going to do it actually follow through.
We see a dozen of these threads each year, and it would absolutely floor me to see a Stein-like documentation of a successful build.
The end result would be interesting as well, even if not the best of anything.
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03-30-2010, 06:22 PM
#111
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I'll be your huckleberry
Honestly, I'm interested.
I would like somebody who says they are going to do it actually follow through.
We see a dozen of these threads each year, and it would absolutely floor me to see a Stein-like documentation of a successful build.
The end result would be interesting as well, even if not the best of anything.
I would like somebody who says they are going to do it actually follow through.
We see a dozen of these threads each year, and it would absolutely floor me to see a Stein-like documentation of a successful build.
The end result would be interesting as well, even if not the best of anything.
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03-30-2010, 06:58 PM
#113
same thing I had seen lots of talk, and no one tried it... I will have my miata drivetrain out on the floor tonight, so from there I can start shoe horning the turbo II in the mounts... we'll see how it goes... I will just let my progress do the talking and shut up for now... seems like the more BS that happens the less progress there is......
Pave the road for the highly motivated but timid.
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03-30-2010, 07:08 PM
#114
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I was hoping someone else was going to fall on the sword first. a guy over at roadsterdrift did the TII swap, but a full custom subframe too... not me... Keeping it SIMPLE. we'll see how long that will last.
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03-30-2010, 07:33 PM
#115
Before anyone else continues to knock the 13b, you should see what is the number one quickest miata on Dragtimes.com. It is rotary powered, weighs 2400 lbs, does a 60' time of 1.390 (very fast) and an elapsed time of 9.490 at 135 mph. There are BP cars that have a higher mph, but not coming close in the 60'. Does that sound like suck to you? (The car does look like crap)
I have seen a naturally aspirated 20b powered car run in the high 5's in the 1/8, which would put you deep in the 9's. It also sounded very sweet, without that damn God awful Blap Blap Blap that 13b's make.
I know that 13b's have won championships in import drag racing against the (what many people think) untouchable Hondas.
I have seen a naturally aspirated 20b powered car run in the high 5's in the 1/8, which would put you deep in the 9's. It also sounded very sweet, without that damn God awful Blap Blap Blap that 13b's make.
I know that 13b's have won championships in import drag racing against the (what many people think) untouchable Hondas.
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03-30-2010, 08:43 PM
#116
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I know there's no point in adding to the party, but here goes:
My TII had about 202k on it when the factory motor let go. It was healthily boosted at 14 psi from a T60-1. It put down mid 300 whp consistantly and was a total hoot. The motor popped because the vacuum hose slipped off the MAP sensor. I wouldn't say they're unreliable, I'd say there are a lot of nay-sayers and dumb people.
As for the original poster, you clearly don't know much about what's involved in an engine swap if you're asking a question like that and that's why you got the response you did. If you're looking for build threads and stuff like that, you should probably ask a more specific question.
Would a rotary miata be a cool anomly? Hell yes. Would it be cost effective or good at anything? Probably not. $4k in a turbo kit would get you a dang fun miata. I'd peg a complete turbo rotary swap at around $5 or $6k, but I'd still watch the video and drink with the guy that built it.
My TII had about 202k on it when the factory motor let go. It was healthily boosted at 14 psi from a T60-1. It put down mid 300 whp consistantly and was a total hoot. The motor popped because the vacuum hose slipped off the MAP sensor. I wouldn't say they're unreliable, I'd say there are a lot of nay-sayers and dumb people.
As for the original poster, you clearly don't know much about what's involved in an engine swap if you're asking a question like that and that's why you got the response you did. If you're looking for build threads and stuff like that, you should probably ask a more specific question.
Would a rotary miata be a cool anomly? Hell yes. Would it be cost effective or good at anything? Probably not. $4k in a turbo kit would get you a dang fun miata. I'd peg a complete turbo rotary swap at around $5 or $6k, but I'd still watch the video and drink with the guy that built it.
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03-30-2010, 09:02 PM
#117
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A 9K redline and a 5K wide power band is handy. Personally, my advice is not to do unless you are doing it for yourself. Doing it for the sake of the forum is a fools erand, it wont be motivation enough most likely.
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03-30-2010, 09:26 PM
#118
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why make the sae mistake over and over when someone else already has? If it doesn't work out I will be the first to tell you... doin it for me...... if it doesn't work turbo'ed I'll go 48 ida, and still put down 180-220 hp and sound wicked.
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03-30-2010, 10:13 PM
#119
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Here's what I've been wondering. Yes, it is clear that OP hasn't a clue about engines, but, since when does Fat Cat make "lowering springs"?
I vote for "this is retarded on so many levels".
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03-30-2010, 11:10 PM
#120
Everyone time someone talks about a rotary swap, and doesn't do it. God kills a bunny. But really, I love RX-8's, go ahead flamers, have fun, the damn things are a blast to drive and i love those sweet renisis sounds. If someone were to successfully put one in a NA, and document it. My turbo **** would be in the classifieds. However, it wont happen, God will smush the easter bunny, and I will be happily boosted.
Edit: Late to the tag party.
Edit: Late to the tag party.
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