Should I move to a turbo NC?
12-10-2013, 12:33 PM
#63
^ Something I never understood...
I was in the market for an s2k until I got in and out of one a few times. I threw my wallet in the back of the car and alas, there was no more room for anything else. My father has an 02 however he is 5'7" 140lbs. Had a friend tell me a while ago to get a miata and fought it until a work buddy let me inside of his. I am still surprised how roomy a miata is for it's size. Even more surprised how roomy the trunk is. I'm 6'0" and 205lbs and I even have to move my seat up a little to fit well. The only complaint I've had is I wish I had tilt steer, but only because i'm too lazy to lower my seat or cut foam.
I was in the market for an s2k until I got in and out of one a few times. I threw my wallet in the back of the car and alas, there was no more room for anything else. My father has an 02 however he is 5'7" 140lbs. Had a friend tell me a while ago to get a miata and fought it until a work buddy let me inside of his. I am still surprised how roomy a miata is for it's size. Even more surprised how roomy the trunk is. I'm 6'0" and 205lbs and I even have to move my seat up a little to fit well. The only complaint I've had is I wish I had tilt steer, but only because i'm too lazy to lower my seat or cut foam.
I don't think you've ever been in an S2000, but thanks for the story.
90-05 Miata and S2000 trunks are virtually identical in volume. In fact, the S2000 trunk is probably more useful due to depth.
I was searching for an s2k when I bought my NC. The ap2 s2000 really is a fabulous car. The big difference I noticed about the interior is that the door comes up much higher on my shoulder and it makes it feel like you're sitting down in a bathtub or something. It's strange, like the car engulfs you. It doesn't bother me too much, as I still love that car. The 2 big factors that won me over for the NC was the price first of all. There was a $5k difference between my NC and an AP2. I didn't even consider the AP1 for many reasons. The second was the low range torque. While the miata has less power, the low end torque really is fabulous. It is a drastic improvement in drive ability and around town driving over the NA/NB. Once you get that f22 motor spun up, it's a blast, but driving at 5k rpm just around town is annoying. The interior roominess was a distant 3rd deciding factor.
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12-10-2013, 02:28 PM
#64
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I had a very good friend that had an AP1 for several years. It was supercharged and put down a nice 300hp but less then 200ft/lbs of torque. Riding around with him at Summit Point was a blast in the car, the minute that we had to be civilized on the street the car became a bore. Below 5k rpms it was just no fun to drive because of the lack of torque. Also I could not stand how you sat in the car. It is very bathtub like as everyone says. I found that my rear vision with the top up was horrible. The only way I would choose an S2k would be as a purely dedicated track car. The minute I would have to do any driving on the street I would pick a miata in a heart beat.
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12-10-2013, 02:33 PM
#65
If he is talking about an AP1 then yes I would say it is harder to drive around town and enjoy the car.
I had a very good friend that had an AP1 for several years. It was supercharged and put down a nice 300hp but less then 200ft/lbs of torque. Riding around with him at Summit Point was a blast in the car, the minute that we had to be civilized on the street the car became a bore. Below 5k rpms it was just no fun to drive because of the lack of torque. Also I could not stand how you sat in the car. It is very bathtub like as everyone says. I found that my rear vision with the top up was horrible. The only way I would choose an S2k would be as a purely dedicated track car. The minute I would have to do any driving on the street I would pick a miata in a heart beat.
I had a very good friend that had an AP1 for several years. It was supercharged and put down a nice 300hp but less then 200ft/lbs of torque. Riding around with him at Summit Point was a blast in the car, the minute that we had to be civilized on the street the car became a bore. Below 5k rpms it was just no fun to drive because of the lack of torque. Also I could not stand how you sat in the car. It is very bathtub like as everyone says. I found that my rear vision with the top up was horrible. The only way I would choose an S2k would be as a purely dedicated track car. The minute I would have to do any driving on the street I would pick a miata in a heart beat.
I didn't say anything about "fun."
The way he phrased it, he was saying that the Miata is faster around town in situations in which you can't get the S2000 over 5000rpms.
Just wondering if that's what he actually meant, if he's mirroring what you're saying, which is that a Miata makes more torque and accelerates faster below 5000rpms/around town.
If so, i'd like to be shown at which point a stock F20c EVER makes less HP or TQ than a stock BP. Let alone before you factor in gearing.
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12-10-2013, 02:46 PM
#67
And whether it's fun or not, that AP1 will bend a stock Miata over the table and have its way even without cracking vtak, y0.
The S2000's low end sucks ONLY because its top end is so good. The Miata is not torquey-er anywhere, i assure you. The S2000 is more like "Oh, it's faster than a Miata, that's nice *vtak* Oh now it's MUCH faster than a Miata."
You don't drive a turbo miata at full boost 100% of the time, do you? (Or DO you?
)The NC might be a different story, i'm not sure. The two i've test driven felt ok. I'd still rather drive the S2000, but that's just me.
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12-10-2013, 02:51 PM
#69
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(I agree with you, however, as I'd rather drive an S2000 than an even an NC. Can't imagine buying a new NC.)
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12-10-2013, 02:54 PM
#71
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All I know is when I was sitting in rush hour traffic, the miata was far easier to drive then the S2k. In the miata I can putz around between 2800-4200 rpms which is where I normally am in my everyday driving to and from work and have the drive being easy and enjoyable. Doing the same drive in the S2k was just not as fun or as easy.
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12-10-2013, 02:57 PM
#72
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Personally, i love an s2k and have always wanted one. I don't think i'd boost it or anything, just enjoy it in its mostly stock glory.
The miata on the other hand, including the NC version are more of what I'd consider a platform to build on. I wouldn't want a stock miata of any kind for very long before I'd at least do some suspension and forced induction mods.
In my mind the argument would go, for a street car which would I want? Turbo/blown NC or a bolt on n/a s2k? Seems like that is a closer comparison, as you can find NC's for sub 10k now days petty easily. In that case, i'd take the NC i think.
The miata on the other hand, including the NC version are more of what I'd consider a platform to build on. I wouldn't want a stock miata of any kind for very long before I'd at least do some suspension and forced induction mods.
In my mind the argument would go, for a street car which would I want? Turbo/blown NC or a bolt on n/a s2k? Seems like that is a closer comparison, as you can find NC's for sub 10k now days petty easily. In that case, i'd take the NC i think.
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12-10-2013, 09:24 PM
#74
What I was saying is that the NC is more fun to drive. The NC is substantially torquey-er than the NA I had. And it just feels quicker than an AP2 in normal driving. I wouldn't say its any easier to drive, just more fun. I don't know which is actually faster, but at like half throttle below about 4500 rpm, the NC feels faster and more fun to me. Once you start talking about full throttle down the on ramp, the s2k is clearly the winner, but that doesn't make for an entertaining commute. It all just comes down to my butt down liking how much fun the NC is when driving at 3/10. I do still love the s2000, but for the price difference and how much fun the miata is, I couldn't justify it.
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12-11-2013, 10:37 AM
#76
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Selfishly want to see how a veteran DIYer goes about tackling the NC for exactly some of the reasons mentioned. Namely the engine management bit. Want to see the dirt fly and the learnings come out.
From my lurks at M.net I got the impression that Sniper was bad, there are 400 tables in the ECU, some of which get added and multiplied to others, ECU tech is where everyone is at, and Subaru guys have had their ECU locked due to ECUtech drm. Nothing open for NC yet.
From my lurks at M.net I got the impression that Sniper was bad, there are 400 tables in the ECU, some of which get added and multiplied to others, ECU tech is where everyone is at, and Subaru guys have had their ECU locked due to ECUtech drm. Nothing open for NC yet.
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12-11-2013, 11:22 AM
#77
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Presupposing that a ROMraider-style level of openness is never achieved, I would probably attack the problem with a parallel install, much as was commonly done with the NB prior to people figuring out how to to alternator, VVT, aircon, etc., within the MS2 / MS3.
A part of me wants to see an EMU-style code modification done to the MS3, which takes in the INJ signals from the stock ECU as reference inputs, and produces re-scaled outputs from it when not in boost, switching away to independent tables when in boost (still closed-loop based on a wideband input, just ignoring the stock ECU.)
I'm not sure whether that would make the problem more complex or less complex.
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12-11-2013, 03:59 PM
#80
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The interior was oddly confining, especially with the top up. I think part of it - compared to my hardtop NA8 Miata - is the S2000 has higher door tops, a taller center console, and less glass.
Driving wise - the lack of low and mid-range torque was definitely something I noticed. I do think someone else made a good point that it may be less about the absolute power and more about the power relative to after the VTEC switchover.
I could overlook all of that with the top down, blasting around in my normal driving style but it sucked to try and drive "reasonably" with the top up. If it was a part-time car or a project car, I might have been willing to put up with the compromises more. Or if it had a turbo setup.
The fact that I averaged 19 MPG and it still felt so slow was also a little insulting.
That's what I averaged in my Evo8 and C5 and, while still slow, they at least trapped 108+ MPH and did require constant wringing out.
On the bright side, I daily drove it for a year and sold it for what I bought it for. So, there's that.
Driving wise - the lack of low and mid-range torque was definitely something I noticed. I do think someone else made a good point that it may be less about the absolute power and more about the power relative to after the VTEC switchover.
I could overlook all of that with the top down, blasting around in my normal driving style but it sucked to try and drive "reasonably" with the top up. If it was a part-time car or a project car, I might have been willing to put up with the compromises more. Or if it had a turbo setup.
The fact that I averaged 19 MPG and it still felt so slow was also a little insulting.
That's what I averaged in my Evo8 and C5 and, while still slow, they at least trapped 108+ MPH and did require constant wringing out.On the bright side, I daily drove it for a year and sold it for what I bought it for. So, there's that.
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