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Old 12-18-2013, 02:09 PM   #4001
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I had a PM9 and it's the one pistol I regret getting rid of.

That SP101 is not comparable in terms of size and weight to the LCP. As far as I know, other than the Kel-Tec, nothing is. If you've got an option that is as thin and as light when loaded, please let me know.

And embed an image because I can't pull up most firearms related websites.
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Old 12-18-2013, 02:14 PM   #4002
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Well, it (SP101) is slightly bigger than a J-frame Smith and heavier. If you plan on shooting 357mag out of it, I would think the weight is a worthwhile compromise. I have heard that those airweight j-frame magnums are downright painful. Someday I will have to try one out.

The revolver has the benefit of being a different shape that doesn't typically scream "GUN!" when carried properly. In a pocket without a pocket holster I don't know. I have never pocket carried anything period.
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Old 12-18-2013, 02:37 PM   #4003
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Note to self, if or when I sell my Gemini customs SP101 post here first...
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Old 12-18-2013, 02:37 PM   #4004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiburbian View Post
I have never pocket carried anything period.
I can tell. I don't think anyone chooses the LCP because it's their first choice in firearms. They chose it because it's the compromise that works for their specific requirements.
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Old 12-18-2013, 02:43 PM   #4005
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Originally Posted by Splitime View Post
Note to self, if or when I sell my Gemini customs SP101 post here first...
Sounds like a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Scrappy Jack View Post
I can tell. I don't think anyone chooses the LCP because it's their first choice in firearms. They chose it because it's the compromise that works for their specific requirements.
Well, I live in Illinois. My opportunities to carry are pretty much limited to when I am out of state (for another couple months). I am sure I may change my opinion and carry methods as I do it more. That said, I don't think the PM9 is THAT much bigger than an LCP to warrant the drawbacks. I have never owned an LCP, nor do I ever plan on it.
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Old 12-18-2013, 03:28 PM   #4006
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I brought up the SP101 not because I think it the best EDC, pocket carry, or what-have-you, I simply think it represents a great value in a segment of pistols that is absolutely full of crap.

When I end up giving first-time handgun buying advice, my go-to recommendation is a G19. Learn it, find out if something about it doesn't work for you, and go from there. The G19 is as close to a do-it-all pistola that you are going to find. I'm partial to the Gen 2s when you can find them used. Figure out how to run a Glock and just be done with it so you can move on to much more interesting things, like rifles.
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Old 12-18-2013, 04:50 PM   #4007
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I agree with basically everything Scrambles just said. My default recommendation is always G19, though I will say that Ruger SR9c is pretty good and cheaper. I have one that I let people try out.
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Old 12-18-2013, 05:19 PM   #4008
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I agree with basically everything Scrambles just said. My default recommendation is always G19, though I will say that Ruger SR9c is pretty good and cheaper. I have one that I let people try out.
Thanks, but take my opinions with a grain of salt. I every-day-carry an old, beat up, full size 1911 which I would NOT recommend to 99% of people.
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Old 12-18-2013, 06:40 PM   #4009
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Sp101 is very heavy. Look at Taurus 85 in the non-titanium but ultralight configuration (aluminium alloy). $299 retail if you look around. It is chambered for .38 SPL +P with a 5 shot capacity (so it is thinner and lighter). Very well made and reliable.
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Old 12-18-2013, 06:53 PM   #4010
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It might work for you, but I would never trust my life to a Taurus. I can guarantee I could find something better do with that $299

Friends don't let friends buy Tauruses... they are the equivalent of ebay turbo kits.
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Old 12-19-2013, 04:27 AM   #4011
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I have fired my Taurus .327 Federal over 300 rounds, and it never fails me. I carry it in my pocket just fine, I find it very reliable.
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Old 12-19-2013, 07:55 AM   #4012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrambles View Post
Thanks, but take my opinions with a grain of salt. I every-day-carry an old, beat up, full size 1911 which I would NOT recommend to 99% of people.
My buddy carries a Para-Ord P1445 tricked to the gills. Amazing gun, but a bit much for a SOB rig. I carried a 1919 for a while but have gone to a shitty little MPA 380 these days. In an ankle rig it's completely hidden, and I can carry SOB in shorts and an untucked tee. I wouldn't enter any sharpshooting competitions with it, but if you shoot a dude on the street he better be on top of you anyway, so ease of carry vs stopping power made that choice for me.
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Old 12-19-2013, 09:14 AM   #4013
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Just me, but if you let a person that close... you're doing it wrong.
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Old 12-19-2013, 09:10 PM   #4014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NastyNate View Post
Just me, but if you let a person that close... you're doing it wrong.
That makes for a nice bumper sticker, but in the real world if you shoot a man down when he's yards away from you there's a good chance that you'll be defending that action in front of a judge. "Imminent Danger" doesn't generally fly well when someone is 30 feet away from you, y'know?"
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Old 12-19-2013, 09:45 PM   #4015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinky View Post
That makes for a nice bumper sticker, but in the real world if you shoot a man down when he's yards away from you there's a good chance that you'll be defending that action in front of a judge. "Imminent Danger" doesn't generally fly well when someone is 30 feet away from you, y'know?"
I have a hard time imagining a scenario where an attacker is 30ft away with any weapon other than a gun and you feel threatened enough to shoot. Brandish sure, but shoot? Now if they are stupid enough to charge someone holding a gun then yeah pop em. The time it takes you to draw and shoot will be plenty to get them under 20ft and then you can show this video to a judge and walk away a free man.

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Old 12-19-2013, 11:20 PM   #4016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrambles View Post
Friends don't let friends buy Tauruses... they are the equivalent of ebay turbo kits.
Everyone has an opinion on tools they've never used. Very useful.
As shitty as Smith's semi-auto devices are, I always laugh at gun snobs that criticize anything from Taurus as being somehow inferior.

The Ruger SP101 is a good revolver, as are all of their revolvers I have owned/used, the Vaquero, the Blackhawk, the Single-Six, etc. None are as well built as a couple of the Colt revolvers I have owned and used. But there is nothing deficient in the Taurus offering I mentioned, as I personally have put thousands of rounds through that model and also and several other Taurus revolvers. I have not experienced a mechanical failure or misfire in any of their revolver models. I have only used their semi-auto units for a few hundred rounds so I do not comment on them from a position of authority, but I am confident in their revolvers.

I have experienced loose cylinder lockup resulting in misalignment of the chamber with the forcing cone on a Smith revolver. This generated both blast and a little lead spray out to the sides. YMMV.
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Old 12-19-2013, 11:25 PM   #4017
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Decided to sell my Kel-Tec P3AT. Never really found a use for it that wasn't filled better than my Kahr CM9.
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Old 12-20-2013, 12:12 PM   #4018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midpack View Post
I have a hard time imagining a scenario where an attacker is 30ft away with any weapon other than a gun and you feel threatened enough to shoot. Brandish sure, but shoot? Now if they are stupid enough to charge someone holding a gun then yeah pop em. The time it takes you to draw and shoot will be plenty to get them under 20ft and then you can show this video to a judge and walk away a free man.
False.

In order to use lethal force "A reasonable person, knowing what you know at the time of the incident would believe there is a reasonable fear of death or great bodily injury."

What I know (there is more but I would have to check my notes):
My draw (in best case scenario)takes approximately 1.5 seconds from the time that I realize the threat exists to the time the first shot is fired.

An average male of average height can cover the distance of 21 feet in 1.5 seconds.
see: Tueller Drill

When the first shot is fired, it is not a guaruntee that the person will stop attacking me. For example, in the 1986 FBI Miami shootout, early in the shootout Micheal Lee Platt was shot in the torso with the bullet ending up one inch from his heart.

Quote:
As Platt climbed out of the passenger side car window, one of Dove's 9 mm rounds hit his right upper arm and went on to penetrate his chest, stopping an inch away from his heart. The autopsy found Platt’s right lung was collapsed and his chest cavity contained 1.3 liters of blood, suggesting damage to the main blood vessels of the right lung. Of his many gunshot wounds, this first was the primary injury responsible for Platt’s eventual death.[11] The car had come to a stop against a parked vehicle, and Platt had to climb across the hood of this vehicle, a Cutlass. As he did so, he was shot a second and third time, in the right thigh and left foot. The shots were believed to have been fired by Dove.[12]
Platt managed to walk and fight for long enough to kill several more people. This was not just standing there shooting, this was stalking behavior.

While a person advancing with a knife may only be able to get a few sticks on you before they collapse from trauma caused by a bullet, you don't have to play the guessing game of wither or not the wound would kill you where you stood or if it would end up being an eventual death. You can be dead just as easy due to bleading out as you would be due to a stab directly to the heart.

Ability - does the attacker(s) have the tools (or shear size) to cause you great bodily injury or death, even if that death is not for a time after the initial injury?
Opportunity - is the attacker in a position where a reasonable person would believe that he would have the ability to do so. (distance, obstacles etc) For example, a fence with an knife attacker behind a fence, not reasonable. Attacker with gun behind fence, reasonable.
Jeopardy - does the attacker give signals that a reasonable person would believe would indicate an imminent attack? (body language, verbal cues, etc)


Video of FBI training film for 1986 shootout:

Last edited by Chiburbian; 12-20-2013 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 12-20-2013, 05:34 PM   #4019
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I practice my training when I can as much as possible, but staying stationary while someone is charging at you is also a bad move. In the classic charging knife vs. gun practice I can gain an extra 3-4 ft. of time by simply, by cautiously walking back while drawing my weapon. However like has been said, it is best to already judge the situation before the charge the best you can, and have that weapon ready if they do end up being a complete idiot with intent to harm.

Dont confuse me for a "tactictard", but I have different methods with each weapon I conceal and openly carry for the day. I mostly carry my Taurus revolver in a pocket concealment when I run my store, why? Because I can draw my revolver from my pocket and pull the trigger in 1.22 seconds, 4 rounds in 1.4. The thing I like about revolvers in my store scenario is that it is ALWAYS ready, the raw stopping power, and I can conceal it the best without bulky holsters and/or loose clothing. Just stick in pocket and go.

If its cold outside, and/or im already wearing large bulky clothing, ill carry my semi-auto, but I do conceal and open carry my .40 semi-auto at night and in questionable areas however, but like I said; I have my own reasons. Not a tactitard.
-At night, 6 rounds without a magazine doesnt seem logical with poor visibility, even with fiber optic sights.
-The muzzle flash of a revolver is just too great, where it compromises my night sight
-The flaw if the pocket holster is that you cant really get a full grasp of the weapon, your hand can get jammed at the rim of the pocket, and at night it gets worse.
-My .40 has 14 rounds on tap, with an extra 14 round magazine.


I do NOT like concealing small, slim compact 6-round semi-autos when I dont need to (and I usually dont) like my 380ACP S&W Bodyguard, but I do keep them in the cars or my wife will conceal them, but she mostly carries her Beretta Nano 9MM. She likes (like most women) the slim guns because of clothing options.

If I do carry it, it goes in the back pocket, but I just hate sitting on my gun for many reasons.

But I find the slim, very compact handguns like the PF-9, 380 bodyguard, etc. etc. useful for hidden home defense positions.
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Old 12-23-2013, 10:36 AM   #4020
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Quote:
I have a hard time imagining a scenario where an attacker is 30ft away with any weapon other than a gun and you feel threatened enough to shoot. Brandish sure, but shoot? Now if they are stupid enough to charge someone holding a gun then yeah pop em. The time it takes you to draw and shoot will be plenty to get them under 20ft and then you can show this video to a judge and walk away a free man.
"Brandishing" is a crime, but has a limited scope. You are not "brandishing" when drawing a weapon in the context of self-defense. You can't get this wrong when talking to people who don't understand the specifics of the escalation of force that leads to use of lethal force in self-defense. You are not committing a crime when you draw your weapon with the intent of defending your life, even if you don't end up shooting. This is not grey area in court.

Also referring to shooting someone in self-defense as "pop em" does nobody any favors. I know you wouldn't stand before a judge and say "Your Honor, I had no choice but to pop that dude". Even in casual internet conversation, it looks like you're trying to minimize an event like this, and all but eliminates your credibilty.
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