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Old 01-23-2016, 03:26 PM   #5261
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Found it... Leader Arms. So a little tweaking is required, no big deal.

Edit to add: you beat me to it n thanks!
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Old 01-23-2016, 03:40 PM   #5262
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Watching the video of Brutus (he is a big guy) it looks like it's a handful, but likely no more than an 1100 with steel shot. If Brutus can do it, so can I
It'd have to rid the carry handle and A2 'style' post though. ..
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Old 01-23-2016, 03:58 PM   #5263
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Yeah at the beginning of that vid Brutus is shooting some like 3" magnum hot stuff. That'll beat the **** out of you even from an 1100. I think towards the end they show the videos of all the failures from it with lighter stuff.

You can see in one of the pics I posted the carry handle and fake gas block sight are removed. The carry handle just has thump screws and is really cheap plastic (and the rear sight is crocked and ****), and the "gas block" is two allen screws (metric). It even has a fake little piece of gas tube, which is pretty funny. The MKA 1919 that this is similar to doesnt seem as good. Its easier to replace the stock on this one and the bolt comes out the front of the gun without having to separate the upper and lower receivers. Which is good because you actually need tools to split the gun, you have to take the butt pad off with a philips screw driver and then put a 10mm allen driver on a long extension to loosen the receiver bolt, wack the socket extension with a mallet to pop the two receivers apart and then finish threading the bolt out. On the plus side, the upper and lower are basically one piece when the gun is assembled they fit together so tight.
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:34 PM   #5264
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Can anyone comment on the H&K PV9 for home defense?
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Old 01-23-2016, 11:55 PM   #5265
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It's very similar to the walther ppq m1, which I owned for several years.
At the time, and to this day, I believe it is the finest of the modern polymer striker fired pistols.
I think it is better than the HK due to the much larger controls and incredible trigger.
You will not find a better factory trigger on a polymer pistol.
Of course it is a good bit cheaper too which is a nice perk. The m2 has an american style mag release if you prefer the button to a paddle.
I prefer the paddle because I could drop a mag without moving my grip in the slightest. Reloads were the fastest I've been able to manage on any platform.
All that being said, I caught the 1911 bug and sold the ppq to further my sig collection.
The ppq or hk would be phenomenal in a home defense role, but I found it printed more than I liked while CC'ing.
It was manageable, but I'm very trim and the butt of the grip bulges a bit.
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Old 01-24-2016, 10:53 AM   #5266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNMakinson View Post
Can anyone comment on the H&K PV9 for home defense?
Monk makes great comments specifically about the weapon, so I will add more. I'm a firm believer in playing the odds, and the statistical odds in an HD scenario indicate no more than one or two shots if you need to fire any at all. Sure, there are a couple historical examples out there where a guy did go through a whole mag during a home-invasion, but those cases are extreme outliers. Utilizing a full-size duty-pistol in an HD role isn't a bad idea, but I highly recommend a set of night sights and a light/laser combo. The biggest challenge you will likely face at night is target recognition, and the last thing you want to do is shoot your stupid neighbors kid who got drunk and crawled in the wrong window in the middle of the night.

Also, (and I say this all the time, and it has nothing to do with firearm selection), if you have visions of "the bump in the night" scenario where you grab your gun and go downstairs looking for a perp in your house, then you're already on the wrong track. If there is somebody in your house who is there specifically to hurt you, then going downstairs plays into their hands. If somebody is there to steal your ****, then they have zero interest in a confrontation and simply letting them know you're awake and are calling the cops should be enough to get them to leave. Your main goal is your own personal safety and the safety of your family. Assuming a defensive position in a hallway or a the top of the stairs is an infinitely better idea than actually going to confront an intruder. Yes, there are laws that generally protect people who shoot others inside their own house, but those laws have ZERO to do with what is tactically sound.

Discuss with your spouse what your expectations are during an event. My wife knows that if it ever goes down, her job is to grab her phone and call the police while and sneak a look out each window to gather intel and pass it to me. My job is to retrieve my pistol, cover the stairs, keep the dog in check, and start yelling downstairs at whoever is down there. The kids aren't old enough yet to have a role, and hopefully they don't wake up.

You may have thought about all this stuff already, but I like to refresh the board with my personal feelings on the subject regularly. There are also plenty of other things to do in order to make your house less of a target and increase the layers of defense between you and your family... in other words, a firearm is just one layer in your plan to stay alive.
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Old 01-24-2016, 11:32 AM   #5267
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So I've had a trust for a few years now, but haven't bought any Class3 stuff because life. With the recent move by our President to change the rules for purchasing Class3 stuff, I've decided to jump in because 'Merica.

The first thing I'm doing is removing the two other "Resonsible Persons" on my Trust and moving them to the category of simply getting my **** when I die, but they won't be subject to the fingerprinting and background checks every two years when the new rules go into affect in July... but I digress.

I've been looking at Solvent Traps for awhile now, and I figured that I should probably get a few Form1's filed and in the que, so I did. I've got 2 for now, one is for a 5" .22 build, and the other is for a 8" 9mm (titanium that will double for .308 as required). It's probably going to be about a 3 month wait even with E-file... whatevs.

I've purchased the 5" aluminum "C" size from this company:
Products | solvent traps

And I purchased a set of 8 baffles (plenty for up to a 9" can):
Robot Check Robot Check

The "C" and "D" sizing is based roughly off the internal dimensions of a C or D cell maglite (referring to the size of the batteries), which was the initial motivation for these products... very easy to modify a standard Maglite flash-light to work effectively as a suppressor, and they parts to directly convert your Maglite into one are sold many places. Since they are aluminum, you're limited to rimfire or centerfire subsonics, but they're generally good to go.

For those not up to speed, allow me... so the ATF has determined that for individuals wishing to "make" their own firearms at home... **yes, anybody who is legally able to own/purchase a firearm is completely legal in actually making their own in their garage for fun** Yup, if you've got the tools and the know-how, you can totally just make your own gun. It has to be for personal use and you can't be in the business of making and then selling for profit... otherwise, totally cool to make your own gun. The rules stipulate that another person can actually complete up to 80% of the work and you just finish off the last 20% for it to be considered that YOU actually "made" it... because if you had to actually make 100% of it, they could say that you needed to buy a mine and smelt your own ore from scratch, etc... This is why you see all the 80% AR15 receivers/jigs out there for guys "making" their own AR15's.

There is no such rule for suppressors, and the ATF has determined through inaction (made no ruling) that it's totally cool to make 99% suppressors. **OK, OK, it's slightly more complicated, but that's the general idea** So guys are selling "solvent traps"... basically tubes that screw onto the end of your muzzle to catch cleaning fluids as you clean your barrel. Interestingly enough, all you have to do to make them a suppressor is drill a hole through the end of the tube and guts. The "guts" can come in many forms and are considered "storage" compartments for the fluids you capture during cleaning or whatever else you want to put in the tube (also sold as invididual "dry storage" containers). Perfectly legal, totally cool, you can buy all the parts on Amazon.

**HOWEVER** Once you have a solvent trap, as soon as you drill a hole through any of the parts, they are now "suppressor parts", and you have to have an ATF tax-stamp approved or you are committing a felony. There's no grey area here and you could go directly Federal pound-you-in-the-*** prison. So if you turn a solvent trap into a suppressor without the paperwork, proper engraving on the device, and show up to the local range and somebody happens to notice and call the cops, it would be a bad day for you. As a law-abiding citizen, I am following the rules and paying the $200 for the stamp like a good citizen before I drill any holes in my solvent trap and the dry-storage cups inside it.

You can build a Form1 (**Form1's are the actual ATF form you fill out when you want to build your own suppressor or create a Short-Barreled-Rifle***) suppressor for very cheap if you have a lathe or access to a CNC machine... basically just paying for raw materials and your time. But if you don't, you can build a suppressor and make your own baffles that are every bit as good as a production unit from a solvent trap and utilizing other fairly common items that coincidentally make very good suppressor baffles with a bit of modification. Automotive engine-block freeze plugs and valve-spring-retainers are very common, but there are others. I chose to buy "filter cups" that are CNC'd aluminum that literally only require me to drill a hole through them for them to be production quality suppressor baffles. The homework has already been done extensively by thousands of others, and my $95 solvent trap will suppress .22lr rounds as well or better than your average $300 factory suppressor.

Here is some **** of the 5" aluminum model I bought... no holes drilled, this is just a solvent trap. You'll notice that since I bought the tube and cups from different places, the cups don't perfectly fill up the tube. 4 cups leaves me about 3/8" gap and 5 sticks out... I'll end up trimming a few cups to make room for the 5th. You want everything to fit tight for obvious reasons.

Feel free to fire off any questions!

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Old 01-24-2016, 11:54 AM   #5268
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Nice!

I'm assuming one of the end caps is female threaded 1/2-28 or 5/8-24 for threading on the barrel?

I have a lathe, so a form 1 suppressor is something I've been thinking about for a while, but didn't know all the parts could be bought 99% complete...
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Old 01-24-2016, 01:19 PM   #5269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roda View Post
Nice!

I'm assuming one of the end caps is female threaded 1/2-28 or 5/8-24 for threading on the barrel?

I have a lathe, so a form 1 suppressor is something I've been thinking about for a while, but didn't know all the parts could be bought 99% complete...
Yup, 1/2-28 for this one. That and 5/8-24 are the norm, but you don't have to look far to find them in other threads, or most places will cut you whatever you want for a fee.

This is the SDTactical website... look under HARDWARE in the pulldown:
http://sdtacticalarms.com/

SDTactical is probably the most popular place for this stuff. They sell aluminum tubes in "C"size, and steel/titanium in "D" size and even have their own "B" size that is in between C and D. Finding baffle material premade or forming your own from freeze plugs isn't a problem. I'll be doing an 8" "B" in titanium for 9mm (got a hard-on for an SBR AR9) that will double for 30cal and be under $200. Plenty of reviews and YT videos show pretty clearly that your ear can't tell the volume difference between any of the various freeze-plug Form1's and an AAC/Thunderbeast/SilencerCo $800 unit. Lots of them sound different, but hearing safe is hearing safe. Plus, building it yourself means it's user-serviceable and you don't have to send the damn thing back to the factory for repairs or to replace worn baffles.

My homework says that as long as you regularly rotate your baffles (the first baffle, called the "blast baffle" takes the brunt of wear and tear) that 10k rds from a steel freeze-plug setup shooting supersonic centerfire rifle is achievable. Heat damages the guts just as much actual firing... ie, 3 consecutive mag dumps that gets the internals up to 700* causes as much wear&tear as 500rds slow-fired. If I stick with subsonic .22lr in the C tube that I bought, it should last damn near forever even though it's all aluminum. It is not recommended to use aluminum either for the tube or guts for centerfire rifle (300blk and other subs are the exception) although there are plenty of people out there who do.

SDTactical sells freeze plugs that will fit their tubes, but none are pre-formed... however, plenty of places do sell pre-formed (just need to be drilled once you get your stamp).

D Cell Formed freeze plugs, Sealed Power, 381-3179 - FREE SHIPPING - Badger Ridge Industires
This place is pretty popular for pre-formed freeze plugs. Unformed plugs (Napa, Autozone, etc...) go for under $1ea, and there are a dozen ways to form them, although you can totally use them flat. A 45* to 60* center cone is the norm. 15 plugs is plenty for a 10" tube because you're going to take up at least a few inches with spacers... an initial blast chamber and at least one smaller spacer after the first baffle (don't ask me the engineering behind using blast chambers, it's just what is done).

There is an ongoing discussion for steel vs. stainless freeze plugs. A byproduct of gunpowder combustion is moisture... a box of ammo will release a tablespoon of water. Some people say if you're going to slow-fire, then stainless is better because some moisture might remain trapped inside... but also that regular steel is a bit stronger... in general, LOTS of people say it doesn't matter except that the stainless ones are twice as much and weigh the same.
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Old 01-24-2016, 01:21 PM   #5270
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For anybody who wants "the source" for all things Form1 for suppressors... here you go:
The $100 effective Form1 suppressors, and one not so $100 56k beware, or even 2mb like me...... - Page 1 - AR15.COM

All ready to catch that nasty solvent when I clean my barrel.

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Last edited by samnavy; 01-24-2016 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 01-24-2016, 01:59 PM   #5271
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Thanks for the info.

As regards different suppressors and sound reduction, we were playing with a couple on the range the other day on 16" and 10" ARs in 5.56. One was a $900 can, the other was a $400 can, don't recall the brands off the top of my head, but they were indistinguishable to the ear... no difference in sound reduction. We switched both cans between guns of both barrel lengths, and aside from the 16" being quieter than the 10" (duh...), no difference. I have no problem believing a homemade can will do just as well in the real world as a big $$ can.
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Old 01-24-2016, 03:02 PM   #5272
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If I'm already in for a $200 tax for something thats essentially untransferable I want a suppressor that isnt going to suck and will last forever, so 8 hundo for for a titanium jobby is a much easier sell. I'll wait till they pass the hearing protection act before I start DIYing suppressors.
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Old 01-24-2016, 04:16 PM   #5273
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
If I'm already in for a $200 tax for something thats essentially untransferable I want a suppressor that isnt going to suck and will last forever, so 8 hundo for for a titanium jobby is a much easier sell. I'll wait till they pass the hearing protection act before I start DIYing suppressors.
The HPA isn't happening anytime soon. I doubt it'll even get out of the Homeland Security Committee. I'm not even sure I want it to. Within a few months of suppressors getting off the NFA and just being another 4473 item, they will start showing up at crime scenes and gang-shootings. The anti-gunners will rave and more usually neutral people will turn against us. I kinda like the fact that they are on the NFA from the aspect that very few of them are out there comparatively and are almost never stolen or otherwise illegally transferred. No, I don't like an extra $200, but I like the demographic of people who are willing to pay it. As soon as you have masses of silent/assasin gang-bangers out there... and you know those ******* will all want the new hotness... nobody will give a **** about how awesome it is for enthusiasts to be able to go to the range and not wear muffs.

Aside from that, I'm telling you, the no-****-real-world results are out there... a DIY Form1 using freeze plugs is every bit as reliable and effective as a CNC-baffled production piece and they last just as long. Plus, they are user serviceable and repairable. In several aspects, they are superior to production pieces. They are getting more popular by the day, with more products available to help you "make" your own popping up all the time.

From SDT:
9.6" Titanium "D" threaded tube: $80
5/8-24 Adapter + End Cap: $92
Aluminum spacer pipe: $10
TOTAL: $180

Baffle Options... pick ONE:
8-pk of stainless CNC cups from TycaIndustries: $129
15pk of Badger Ridge preformed FP's: $32
10x Napa Steel VSR's: $60
8x 1.375 aluminum cnc cups: $50

The Badger Ridge ones are almost a no-brainer... $212 total shipped for 99% titanium suppressor with the strength and volume for up to .300winmag that performs as well as a $1000 Thunderbeast. This is more than likely how I will go with for my second buy...and I can buy the parts any time I want whether I wait for the stamp or not... I just can't drill any holes until the stamp gets here.

Proof is in the pudding:
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Old 01-24-2016, 04:28 PM   #5274
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I hope they do show up at crime scenes, they'll still have the 30 year mandatory minimum for committing a felony with a suppressor street the hpa passes. Alot of gang bangers will be off the street basically permanently when they're committing crimes with 30 year mandatory minimums.

Interested how tight of a hole you can hold on a home shop on these, the tightness of the diameter to the bullet without getting baffle strikes is critical.
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Old 01-24-2016, 06:02 PM   #5275
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Now this is interesting. I have been wanting to get into suppressors, but the price of admission was just a bit high. Hmmm......what caliber and what barrel length.....
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Old 01-25-2016, 12:01 AM   #5276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Interested how tight of a hole you can hold on a home shop on these, the tightness of the diameter to the bullet without getting baffle strikes is critical.
Plenty of dudes shoot .223 through a .30cal can still within the range of "hearing safe"... you can have a really big hole vs. the size of the bullet and still have plenty of suppression.

A couple of my neighbors have drill presses and there are some simple ways to ensure you drill on-center... buying pre-formed and center-punched freeze-plugs or cups is my plan.

The end-cap for the tube is pre-centered and general guidance is to drill 17/64" (.265) and evaluate for POI shift... if not acceptable, open to 9/32" (.281)... or just go with 9/32 from the start. I think 6/100ths is very achievable with a Craftsman (et at) drill press and something to clamp the part in place. Drill slow and use lube (that's what she said). Most of the websites just tell you to do it with a hand drill with the pre-punched pieces so the bit can float in the initial bites. I might start mine with hand drill and then move to the press, got a few months to decide.

Here's a closeup of the center-punch in the aluminum cups I bought... no sweat.
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Old 01-25-2016, 12:51 AM   #5277
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Originally Posted by stratosteve View Post
Now this is interesting. I have been wanting to get into suppressors, but the price of admission was just a bit high. Hmmm......what caliber and what barrel length.....
Making a rimfire can is easy and cheap... I splurged on the set of $50 cups, but could easily have done it with a different set of $26 cups and been OTD for under $75.

I just looked at Buds and the Savage MKii FVSR that I've got is $240... that's $50 more than I paid for it and I know I've seen it down in the $220 range recently. It also looks like Savage isn't running it's rebates for 2016... there was a $25 rebate for these.
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Old 01-25-2016, 01:06 AM   #5278
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This is incredibly fascinating stuff. I've never even heard of solvent traps before.

So, if I understand correctly, I need to submit the paperwork for a class III, submit a form1, and put it on a trust...?
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Old 01-25-2016, 09:14 AM   #5279
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Why the hell do people think they need to be a "Class 3 NFA Dealer" in order to own NFA items? That's one of the most ridiculous yet persistent myths I've ever heard.

You only need a "Class III NFA Dealer License" if you're in the business of selling NFA items. I hope you're not planning to make and sell your own suppressors, because that is indeed illegal unless you have a "Class II Manufacturer-Dealer License".

You don't need a trust, but it's generally considered the intelligent thing to do.

All you need to do is submit the form to the ATF along with your $200 tax payment, then wait for it to come back approved.
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Old 01-25-2016, 09:23 AM   #5280
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Why the hell do people think they need to be a "Class 3 NFA Dealer" in order to own NFA items? That's one of the most ridiculous yet persistent myths I've ever heard.

You only need a "Class III NFA Dealer License" if you're in the business of selling NFA items. I hope you're not planning to make and sell your own suppressors, because that is indeed illegal unless you have a "Class II Manufacturer-Dealer License".

You don't need a trust, but it's generally considered the intelligent thing to do.

All you need to do is submit the form to the ATF along with your $200 tax payment, then wait for it to come back approved.
Though if you get a class 7 ffl and a title ii tax stamp it makes financial sense if you wanted to make 3 of more suppressors (or sbrs) a year and ordered 2 or more guns on line per year, and opens (actually forces you to have the intent) you to the opportunity make some side money doing ffl transfers and building suppressors.
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