NW Bill

I've seen a lot of people question whether the Voodoo II kit can actually do 180whp without modification; Corky kind of pointed to that himself. But it sounds like you guys are suggesting that we should also regard as puffery or marketing exaggeration BEGi's statements that: "BEGI has created the NB 200 turbo system for a 200 whp kit utilizing the stock injectors, stock exhaust system ... This system is capable of 200 whp + straight out of the box. It can run 8-9 psi, and satisfy the biggest desire to "install it and forget it". No tuning is needed...."

The more I have to do to adapt or modify the NB200 (or Voodoo II) to make it meet the claims, the less interested I am. I might as well just go with a different kit (so, FMII or -- hmm, not sure which BEGi kit, all the options start to leave me dazed; S3 maybe). I don't mean replacing the injectors, but once I consider going standalone then there isn't much point to getting the kit.

Bill

triple88a

iTrader: (2)

You are looking at it the wrong way.

There are bottle necks in the system. Some are bigger than others and cannot be ignored.

Think of them as limitations. Some can be ignored such as the clutch.. in other words it will hold until it cant hold. That's about 200 whp.

Others such as the injectors cannot be ignored and must be solved. And those max out at 160-170ish whp.

You cannot run a system to 200whp with stock injectors... Maybe you can for 1 dyno run but what good is it if you melt the pistons on the 2nd run?

The begi down pipe, intercooler, turbo, and manifold will be plenty of good for even 300 hp.. the problem is you need to eliminate the weak links in your system and that is the injectors and the ecu.

That said you CAN do it at some intervals. You can run up to 160-170 on stock injectors with the proper tunning. When you replace the injectors you can go up to 8-9 psi until your clutch starts slipping. Then you can increase the boost some more when you get a high performance clutch and go up to 240-250 which is about the safe limit for stock internals.
Those are all safe numbers assuming your tunning is good. Reality is if your tunning is ****, you'll pop the motor at 5 psi.

The internal combustion is an assembly of parts. All of them have to work properly for it to run. Simple as that.

Both, begi and the FM kits are available to be purchased without the electronic goodies.

Corky Bell

A year or two ago we found a two inch wide wrap around clamp for joining segments of a tailpipe. It is tightened with crossbolts (essentially) and stretches to seal the bigger diameter of the outside swage while staying tight on the smaller diameter.

It seals perfectly everytime.

corky

triple88a

iTrader: (2)

So you guys found a way to make it work. That said why make it like that at all?

bogly

iTrader: (5)

I think Stephanie posted in another thread what they do with the stock injectors and re-flash. It's basically what triple said (opening the injectors longer).

Thread here.

bogly

iTrader: (5)

triple,

My old BEGi kit also used that long bolt for the downpipe. That was on my NA. I recently acquired another BEGi kit and found out that the downpipe doesn't have that contraption anymore.

NW Bill

Thanks -- that's a thread I'd read at some point but forgotten -- the older I get the harder it is to remember what I know! . Very helpful.

Bill

Corky Bell

That silly bolt is long gone.

388A has it right in my view, regarding basic parts. The process of making more/more/more power is the continuous elimination of weak links. It is rapidly becoming more and more urgent to start with the remote gate. It is hard to not use the TIAL gate as Jones, (Tial) is a genious, and one of the best guys around....ever. But, regardless of politics, the chinagate has worked perfectly everytime. That is probably another testamonial to Jones.

One difference of opinion; we have made 209 rwhp with stock injectors and zero correction factor. The 12.5 afr was requiring flat out injectors. Nine psi boost, ran smoothly, never a knock, and is a delight to drive. Were we pushing it? Sure, wouldn't you? The suggested Brake specific for NA motors is .45 lbs/hp-hr, supercharged is suggested as .55. That says the afr ought to be 12/1 under boost. The .55 number goes back to pre-MIller Indy cars. The Miata does not.

Corky

18psi

iTrader: (76)

So you're saying 12.5 in boost on pump gas is safe? I know you said "pushing it" but if you'd do this for any customer then it must be safe in your eyes.
I guess if you're in texas and have some super awesome 93 you might get away with that, but around here with our camel **** CA91 I do not see an engine lasting very long running 12.5. Been there, saw that done, pulled melted pistons afterwards. 209rwhp on stock injectors is just not adding up in my head.

Leafy

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, that doesnt add up, unless you're upping the fuel pressure. From the rc calculator to hit 200hp at 100% duty cycle with a bsfc of 0.55 and a system pressure of 44 psi you need 290cc injectors. If you push that up to NB 60 psi then 246cc should work. But that doesnt factor in AFR, and I cant find the calculator or spreadsheet that includes it. This is an NB kit, so I guess it should work. BUT remember the NB fpr isnt manifold referenced, so 60PSI base pressure at 8 psi of boost is really 52psi of pressure.

karter74

iTrader: (4)

Eh, I wouldn't necessarily rule it out completely. I made ~231whp on a Mustang Dyno using my RX-7 460s which should be too small for that.

triple88a

iTrader: (2)

You do know that the stock injectors are almost half the rx7 injectors right?

Corky Bell

Amendment A1:
12.5 is a good number up to a point. If 12.5 exists at 2 psi, I'd call it rich. At 20 psi, its lean.

A2: Yes, Texas gasoline. Race gas at every pump. In fact, the stuff we pump straight out of the ground is 93+.

Corky

triple88a

iTrader: (2)

12.5 at 9psi is not lean?

karter74

iTrader: (4)

And you realize that 231hp on a mustang dyno is ~260 on a dynojet, then calculating for drivetrain loss at 15%, comes to roughly 300hp at the flywheel which should be too much for 460's.

So I don't think its out of the realm of possibilities.

Leafy

iTrader: (1)

Depends on how confident you are with your tune. If I was really confident in the tune that I didn't need a large margin of safety sure I'd run that. I used to on my blower car... And people called me crazy then.

triple88a

iTrader: (2)

You just said you wouldnt rule out 210whp on the stock injectors yet say 230whp is too much for a stock rx7 injectors.

karter74

iTrader: (4)

Bell doesn't use a mustang dyno. All whp ratings kit manufacturers throw around are from dynojets as they read higher. 210 whp is ~180whp on a mustang dyno. Why do you think I mentioned a mustang dyno? Probably because people realize different dynos give different numbers...

Reading comprehension fail.

18psi

iTrader: (76)

And you must realize that a mustang puts out what the operator calibrates for it to put out. In today's world where bench racing is so popular, many mustang dyno's are calibrated to output on par with or just slightly under a jet. So the whole dyno argument is kinda pointless.

Now that Corky has amended his previous statement, we can agree that 12.5AFR in boost on pump gas is the exception, and by no means a rule. Yet both BEGI and FM claim the numbers they do because it sells more kits.

triple88a

iTrader: (2)

So 180 with stock size injectors vs 230 with twice as big injectors? 800 extra cc of fuel to make another 50hp? Your math isnt too strong is it?