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Old 05-15-2013, 06:19 PM   #21
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I've seen a lot of people question whether the Voodoo II kit can actually do 180whp without modification; Corky kind of pointed to that himself. But it sounds like you guys are suggesting that we should also regard as puffery or marketing exaggeration BEGi's statements that: "BEGI has created the NB 200 turbo system for a 200 whp kit utilizing the stock injectors, stock exhaust system ... This system is capable of 200 whp + straight out of the box. It can run 8-9 psi, and satisfy the biggest desire to "install it and forget it". No tuning is needed...."

The more I have to do to adapt or modify the NB200 (or Voodoo II) to make it meet the claims, the less interested I am. I might as well just go with a different kit (so, FMII or -- hmm, not sure which BEGi kit, all the options start to leave me dazed; S3 maybe). I don't mean replacing the injectors, but once I consider going standalone then there isn't much point to getting the kit.

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Old 05-15-2013, 06:29 PM   #22
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You are looking at it the wrong way.

There are bottle necks in the system. Some are bigger than others and cannot be ignored.

Think of them as limitations. Some can be ignored such as the clutch.. in other words it will hold until it cant hold. That's about 200 whp.

Others such as the injectors cannot be ignored and must be solved. And those max out at 160-170ish whp.

You cannot run a system to 200whp with stock injectors... Maybe you can for 1 dyno run but what good is it if you melt the pistons on the 2nd run?

The begi down pipe, intercooler, turbo, and manifold will be plenty of good for even 300 hp.. the problem is you need to eliminate the weak links in your system and that is the injectors and the ecu.

That said you CAN do it at some intervals. You can run up to 160-170 on stock injectors with the proper tunning. When you replace the injectors you can go up to 8-9 psi until your clutch starts slipping. Then you can increase the boost some more when you get a high performance clutch and go up to 240-250 which is about the safe limit for stock internals.
Those are all safe numbers assuming your tunning is good. Reality is if your tunning is ****, you'll pop the motor at 5 psi.

The internal combustion is an assembly of parts. All of them have to work properly for it to run. Simple as that.

Both, begi and the FM kits are available to be purchased without the electronic goodies.
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Old 05-16-2013, 09:43 AM   #23
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A year or two ago we found a two inch wide wrap around clamp for joining segments of a tailpipe. It is tightened with crossbolts (essentially) and stretches to seal the bigger diameter of the outside swage while staying tight on the smaller diameter.

It seals perfectly everytime.

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Old 05-16-2013, 09:48 AM   #24
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So you guys found a way to make it work. That said why make it like that at all?
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:42 PM   #25
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I think Stephanie posted in another thread what they do with the stock injectors and re-flash. It's basically what triple said (opening the injectors longer).

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No stinkies. Is it the best, or the be all, end all? No. But it has its place. Especially for those who want standalone ECU performance on the stock ECU. In my opinion, for the price and capability, it is very hard to beat the Megasquirt. But it is not emissions legal. Whereas the reflash (and Xede too if needed) would be.

The stock MAF is good to about 14 psi on the NB. The narrow band is only needed for closed loop fuel control. You must remember, when this car goes open loop it runs about 12:1 near red line (when not in boost). And the ECU won't be taking feedback from the narrow band then anyway. All we do change it to go open loop sooner (not based on rpm) and make it extend the injector pulses sooner. If more than 14 psi is desired, we have a few trick up our sleeve. We will be testing it soon.

If you changed an exhaust, yes it would necessitate a reflash. That is where the Xede would come in handy. The ECU reflash is not the perfect solution for everyone. But for some, the simplicity appeals.
Stephanie
Thread here.
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Old 05-16-2013, 12:49 PM   #26
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triple,

My old BEGi kit also used that long bolt for the downpipe. That was on my NA. I recently acquired another BEGi kit and found out that the downpipe doesn't have that contraption anymore.





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Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
So you guys found a way to make it work. That said why make it like that at all?
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Old 05-16-2013, 01:28 PM   #27
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Thanks -- that's a thread I'd read at some point but forgotten -- the older I get the harder it is to remember what I know! . Very helpful.

Bill

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I think Stephanie posted in another thread what they do with the stock injectors and re-flash. It's basically what triple said (opening the injectors longer).

Thread here.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:16 AM   #28
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That silly bolt is long gone.

388A has it right in my view, regarding basic parts. The process of making more/more/more power is the continuous elimination of weak links. It is rapidly becoming more and more urgent to start with the remote gate. It is hard to not use the TIAL gate as Jones, (Tial) is a genious, and one of the best guys around....ever. But, regardless of politics, the chinagate has worked perfectly everytime. That is probably another testamonial to Jones.

One difference of opinion; we have made 209 rwhp with stock injectors and zero correction factor. The 12.5 afr was requiring flat out injectors. Nine psi boost, ran smoothly, never a knock, and is a delight to drive. Were we pushing it? Sure, wouldn't you? The suggested Brake specific for NA motors is .45 lbs/hp-hr, supercharged is suggested as .55. That says the afr ought to be 12/1 under boost. The .55 number goes back to pre-MIller Indy cars. The Miata does not.

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Old 05-17-2013, 09:27 AM   #29
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So you're saying 12.5 in boost on pump gas is safe? I know you said "pushing it" but if you'd do this for any customer then it must be safe in your eyes.
I guess if you're in texas and have some super awesome 93 you might get away with that, but around here with our camel **** CA91 I do not see an engine lasting very long running 12.5. Been there, saw that done, pulled melted pistons afterwards. 209rwhp on stock injectors is just not adding up in my head.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:39 AM   #30
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Yeah, that doesnt add up, unless you're upping the fuel pressure. From the rc calculator to hit 200hp at 100% duty cycle with a bsfc of 0.55 and a system pressure of 44 psi you need 290cc injectors. If you push that up to NB 60 psi then 246cc should work. But that doesnt factor in AFR, and I cant find the calculator or spreadsheet that includes it. This is an NB kit, so I guess it should work. BUT remember the NB fpr isnt manifold referenced, so 60PSI base pressure at 8 psi of boost is really 52psi of pressure.

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Old 05-17-2013, 12:24 PM   #31
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Eh, I wouldn't necessarily rule it out completely. I made ~231whp on a Mustang Dyno using my RX-7 460s which should be too small for that.
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Old 05-17-2013, 06:26 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karter74 View Post
Eh, I wouldn't necessarily rule it out completely. I made ~231whp on a Mustang Dyno using my RX-7 460s which should be too small for that.

You do know that the stock injectors are almost half the rx7 injectors right?
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Old 05-18-2013, 06:11 PM   #33
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Amendment A1:
12.5 is a good number up to a point. If 12.5 exists at 2 psi, I'd call it rich. At 20 psi, its lean.

A2: Yes, Texas gasoline. Race gas at every pump. In fact, the stuff we pump straight out of the ground is 93+.

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Old 05-19-2013, 06:02 PM   #34
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12.5 at 9psi is not lean?
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:08 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
You do know that the stock injectors are almost half the rx7 injectors right?
And you realize that 231hp on a mustang dyno is ~260 on a dynojet, then calculating for drivetrain loss at 15%, comes to roughly 300hp at the flywheel which should be too much for 460's.

So I don't think its out of the realm of possibilities.
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Old 05-19-2013, 07:11 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
12.5 at 9psi is not lean?
Depends on how confident you are with your tune. If I was really confident in the tune that I didn't need a large margin of safety sure I'd run that. I used to on my blower car... And people called me crazy then.
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Old 05-19-2013, 08:22 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karter74 View Post
And you realize that 231hp on a mustang dyno is ~260 on a dynojet, then calculating for drivetrain loss at 15%, comes to roughly 300hp at the flywheel which should be too much for 460's.

So I don't think its out of the realm of possibilities.
You just said you wouldnt rule out 210whp on the stock injectors yet say 230whp is too much for a stock rx7 injectors.
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Old 05-19-2013, 08:44 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by triple88a View Post
You just said you wouldnt rule out 210whp on the stock injectors yet say 230whp is too much for a stock rx7 injectors.
Bell doesn't use a mustang dyno. All whp ratings kit manufacturers throw around are from dynojets as they read higher. 210 whp is ~180whp on a mustang dyno. Why do you think I mentioned a mustang dyno? Probably because people realize different dynos give different numbers...

Reading comprehension fail.
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Old 05-19-2013, 08:59 PM   #39
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And you must realize that a mustang puts out what the operator calibrates for it to put out. In today's world where bench racing is so popular, many mustang dyno's are calibrated to output on par with or just slightly under a jet. So the whole dyno argument is kinda pointless.

Now that Corky has amended his previous statement, we can agree that 12.5AFR in boost on pump gas is the exception, and by no means a rule. Yet both BEGI and FM claim the numbers they do because it sells more kits.
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Old 05-19-2013, 09:37 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karter74 View Post
Bell doesn't use a mustang dyno. All whp ratings kit manufacturers throw around are from dynojets as they read higher. 210 whp is ~180whp on a mustang dyno. Why do you think I mentioned a mustang dyno? Probably because people realize different dynos give different numbers...

Reading comprehension fail.
So 180 with stock size injectors vs 230 with twice as big injectors? 800 extra cc of fuel to make another 50hp? Your math isnt too strong is it?
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