MSM stock goodies on BP-Z3?
03-16-2017, 04:45 PM
#1
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MSM stock goodies on BP-Z3?
I have an '02 SE. I love my '02 SE. It's a fun car. Handles good, comfy, the sound system is pretty good, hardtop is nice, and at a mere 5'6" on a good day the car fits me like a glove. Unfortunately I live in Kansas, where the average road looks like this:
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Not many curves, so having a car that takes 8 seconds to reach highway speed can be a drag at times.
Recently a buddy of mine offered to give me the entire stock turbo system, oil pan, everything short of the oil and water lines from his Mazdaspeed (which is now a 1.9 liter stripped out track monster) for $100 which I intend on picking up next weekend. Information on the internet is scarce about this particular sort of build but my goal is 7psi or a 7 second 0-60 time (whichever is easier). To this end my plans are to get a larger intercooler for the Mazdaspeed nonsense, buy or fabricate oil and water lines (doesn't the MSM have some water hardlines that strap to the STB?), and use a piggyback ECU. Why a piggyback? I'm aware a Megasquirt is The Way To Go (tm) but for my needs it is a hassle and massive overkill. I'm not looking to get every last horsepower squeezed out of this turbo nor do I care about flat-foot shifting, launch control, etc. and after helping my buddy tune his MS2 in his built turbo 1.8 I have absolutely no interest in spending hours getting tip-in values set up correctly and throttle enrichment, etc. I was thinking of going with the Track Dog Racing Fuel/Timing cards or whatever I can find used.
The only questions I really have about this are: what's a good place to find oil and water piping for this to retrofit it onto my stock NB2 1.8? I heard 1.8 rods are weaker than 1.6 rods, at what level of abuse does this become a problem (and are MSM rods in a stock MSM engine stronger than those in a BP-Z3)? Is the .5:1 increase in compression ratio vs a MSM engine going to cause me much issues? I assume pinging would be more prevalent but conservative spark advance with the piggyback and a larger intercooler will (I hope) offset that.
My previous turbo Miata experience is a $300 ghetto-charged non-intercooled 1.6 that I made with horrid welding and junkyard parts with a FPU for fuel management and retarded timing for dat out-of-boost lethargicness. That thing was the **** at 7psi until I sold it when I got my NB. Super addictive.
TL;DR want to do everything wrong and boost BP-Z3 with piggyback + stock MSM garbage because I hate life and love laggy turbos with no top end.
================================================== ========================
Not many curves, so having a car that takes 8 seconds to reach highway speed can be a drag at times.
Recently a buddy of mine offered to give me the entire stock turbo system, oil pan, everything short of the oil and water lines from his Mazdaspeed (which is now a 1.9 liter stripped out track monster) for $100 which I intend on picking up next weekend. Information on the internet is scarce about this particular sort of build but my goal is 7psi or a 7 second 0-60 time (whichever is easier). To this end my plans are to get a larger intercooler for the Mazdaspeed nonsense, buy or fabricate oil and water lines (doesn't the MSM have some water hardlines that strap to the STB?), and use a piggyback ECU. Why a piggyback? I'm aware a Megasquirt is The Way To Go (tm) but for my needs it is a hassle and massive overkill. I'm not looking to get every last horsepower squeezed out of this turbo nor do I care about flat-foot shifting, launch control, etc. and after helping my buddy tune his MS2 in his built turbo 1.8 I have absolutely no interest in spending hours getting tip-in values set up correctly and throttle enrichment, etc. I was thinking of going with the Track Dog Racing Fuel/Timing cards or whatever I can find used.
The only questions I really have about this are: what's a good place to find oil and water piping for this to retrofit it onto my stock NB2 1.8? I heard 1.8 rods are weaker than 1.6 rods, at what level of abuse does this become a problem (and are MSM rods in a stock MSM engine stronger than those in a BP-Z3)? Is the .5:1 increase in compression ratio vs a MSM engine going to cause me much issues? I assume pinging would be more prevalent but conservative spark advance with the piggyback and a larger intercooler will (I hope) offset that.
My previous turbo Miata experience is a $300 ghetto-charged non-intercooled 1.6 that I made with horrid welding and junkyard parts with a FPU for fuel management and retarded timing for dat out-of-boost lethargicness. That thing was the **** at 7psi until I sold it when I got my NB. Super addictive.
TL;DR want to do everything wrong and boost BP-Z3 with piggyback + stock MSM garbage because I hate life and love laggy turbos with no top end.
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03-16-2017, 05:09 PM
#2
-Your "logic" about piggybacks vs ms is extremely flawed, and you have no idea how much of a headache piggybacks can be.
-What you heard about rods is idiotic, whoever told you that is a moron and never listen to them.
-No
-7psi not some universal set-point, and the msm setup can easily do 10
-did I mention that your piggyback idea is really stupid?
otherwise not a bad plan (but only cause you're getting the stuff for $100, otherwise I'd not even recommend it)
-What you heard about rods is idiotic, whoever told you that is a moron and never listen to them.
-No
-7psi not some universal set-point, and the msm setup can easily do 10
-did I mention that your piggyback idea is really stupid?
otherwise not a bad plan (but only cause you're getting the stuff for $100, otherwise I'd not even recommend it)
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03-16-2017, 05:24 PM
#3
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Join Date: May 2016
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-Your "logic" about piggybacks vs ms is extremely flawed, and you have no idea how much of a headache piggybacks can be.
-What you heard about rods is idiotic, whoever told you that is a moron and never listen to them.
-No
-7psi not some universal set-point, and the msm setup can easily do 10
-did I mention that your piggyback idea is really stupid?
otherwise not a bad plan (but only cause you're getting the stuff for $100, otherwise I'd not even recommend it)
-What you heard about rods is idiotic, whoever told you that is a moron and never listen to them.
-No
-7psi not some universal set-point, and the msm setup can easily do 10
-did I mention that your piggyback idea is really stupid?
otherwise not a bad plan (but only cause you're getting the stuff for $100, otherwise I'd not even recommend it)
The MSM setup might be able to do 10 but 7psi is roughly what a stock Miata does. It was fun on my NA, it'll be fun on my NB and hopefully not stress things too much. My "speed" goal is to get 7 seconds to 60 or a little under that. I'm not sure how much power that requires but looking at how quickly a stock MSM scoots vs what will essentially be an MSM with a larger intercooler, higher compression ratio, and VVT I'm hoping to get there with a very mild (and "reliable", relatively) setup.
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03-16-2017, 06:06 PM
#4
Both. Regardless of the nonsense that the old company owners will spout to you in order to sell you their ancient product, it doesn't always just "plug right in and work perfect, requiring little to no tuning, and operating just like OEM". And even then you'll still need a wideband to even roughly dial it in. And then you'll start noticing all the other shortcomings, and need to hack in more junk into your car to make this whole pile of garbage actually work together and not fight your stock ecu all the time, and the both of them to then produce power and drivability that you're looking for.
There are so many discussions about this subject on here that it's almost offensive that someone would still "ask why". But I'll give you the general cliff notes just cause I'm in a good mood today:
First off you won't have near the amount of control: you won't have precise fueling, spark, and part throttle control. And despite your low power goals, precision is extremely important on any setup, no matter how low a power. I've seen multiple melted pistons, spun bearings, and holes in the block from these specific bandaid solutions that are supposed to work perfectly. Many have lean tip in, they just ignore it. Many lean out at various rpms's, they just ignore it. Many have jerkiness at part throttle part boost, they just ignore it. The point is, if you ignore symptoms of bad tuning, you can call any piggyback "perfect" and just move on with life, and since the BP is a tough engine, it will likely handle the abuse for a very long time before it actually gives up the ghost.
There are also driveability issues. There are also fueling limitations, there are also............the list of issues is huge.
This is why everyone with more than 2 brain cells has pretty much moved away from band aids. Because it's not 1989 anymore.
"We have the technology"
The worst part is when people associate this stuff with power. "oh I'll only need 200hp so I don't need any fancy................."
That's just stupid. You don't need a proper ecu for big power. you need a proper ecu for everything, including putt putting around with 200hp in a Miata designed for 100
There are so many discussions about this subject on here that it's almost offensive that someone would still "ask why". But I'll give you the general cliff notes just cause I'm in a good mood today:
First off you won't have near the amount of control: you won't have precise fueling, spark, and part throttle control. And despite your low power goals, precision is extremely important on any setup, no matter how low a power. I've seen multiple melted pistons, spun bearings, and holes in the block from these specific bandaid solutions that are supposed to work perfectly. Many have lean tip in, they just ignore it. Many lean out at various rpms's, they just ignore it. Many have jerkiness at part throttle part boost, they just ignore it. The point is, if you ignore symptoms of bad tuning, you can call any piggyback "perfect" and just move on with life, and since the BP is a tough engine, it will likely handle the abuse for a very long time before it actually gives up the ghost.
There are also driveability issues. There are also fueling limitations, there are also............the list of issues is huge.
This is why everyone with more than 2 brain cells has pretty much moved away from band aids. Because it's not 1989 anymore.
"We have the technology"
The worst part is when people associate this stuff with power. "oh I'll only need 200hp so I don't need any fancy................."
That's just stupid. You don't need a proper ecu for big power. you need a proper ecu for everything, including putt putting around with 200hp in a Miata designed for 100
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03-17-2017, 01:10 AM
#6
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@18psi thanks for the advice. I'll look into a DIYPNP in parallel with my stock ECU to retain the immobilizer and stuff.
@ryansmoneypit not to sound like a fanboy but I've driven lots of C5s and they made my Miata feel like a precision luxury car by comparison. Beating a dead horse, but the interiors are garbage, fit and finish is garbage, and the handling always seemed a little sloppy even on examples with a mere 65k miles. A C6 would be lookin more at $15k for a decent example.
@ryansmoneypit not to sound like a fanboy but I've driven lots of C5s and they made my Miata feel like a precision luxury car by comparison. Beating a dead horse, but the interiors are garbage, fit and finish is garbage, and the handling always seemed a little sloppy even on examples with a mere 65k miles. A C6 would be lookin more at $15k for a decent example.
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