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Race Prep Miata race-only chat. 949 Racing - Rim & tires

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Old 02-23-2015, 04:09 PM   #301
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Durometer after two sessions dropped to about 62 from the 74 originally. Top layer of the tread definitely hardened a bit from age. As with any old tires, they actually took some work to bring up temp. Id imagine freshly made examples would come up fully on the out lap. I didnt have the opportunity to do any controlled testing but I can say they definitely behaved like soft compound race tires. Closer to an R6 than an RC-1 or even, RR. Steering was linear and more tolerant of high slip angles, as you would expect with a narrow, softer compound tire. SOTP, Id say they were just a smidge faster than the 225/45 RC1s. A fresher set might be even faster. If I had to guess, Id say a set of 205 R6s would have been less than 1s faster. 195/55/15 TD soft on 15x8 (Tungsten). Ambient was around 65, surface 75-80. Two sessions, no significant drop off but this track has a huge, almost mile long straight to cool off tires. Braking grip was very good. Excellent feedback there.

So nothing conclusive but at least a sneak peak. We don't plan to do any further evaluation as I think you would really need a set made in 2014 (if such exists) to get good data. Probably a very good intermediate rain tire.

Looking at the clag that built up, one immediately can tell these are not going to be confused with 200tw, or even 100tw compounds. Wear was significant. I'd expect a set to last two weekend on a light car, and maybe one on a heavy car (Mustang, Subie, E46)


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Old 02-23-2015, 04:29 PM   #302
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Mounting the 195/55 TD softs up to evaluate tomorrow at ACS. DOT codes are 2212 and 3612 :( That's almost 3 years old for those of you that don't speak DOT. That explains the durometer reading. I don't expect these to perform as they should, given their age.

I sent an email to my contact at Hankook to see if all the US stock is this old or if there are some fresher ones I can purchase to evaluate.

Seeing as these have not been listed on US website for more than about a year, I'm guessing these were actually slow selling inventory originally shipped to another country and drug over here just recently.
i was going to ask where the heck did you get them from. i've never seen a set for sale at a retail location.
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Old 02-23-2015, 05:16 PM   #303
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Discount Tire direct, linked earlier in this thread
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Old 02-25-2015, 11:14 PM   #304
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I like how hankooks site has the TD listed for $155, DTD has them for $129.02 shipped for the softs.
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Old 03-02-2015, 10:18 PM   #305
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195/55/15 TD soft on 15x8 (Tungsten).
I want to try this tire for TT but only have 15x7 and 15x9 wheels. would the 9 stretch this tire too far for track use?
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Old 03-02-2015, 10:53 PM   #306
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I want to try this tire for TT but only have 15x7 and 15x9 wheels. would the 9 stretch this tire too far for track use?
I bet the sevens would be fine. And weigh slightly less.
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Old 03-05-2015, 04:45 PM   #307
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yeah, but, would 9's be better? This is a very wide 195 in section width.
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Old 03-06-2015, 01:25 PM   #308
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Hi guys!

Interesting discussions! TD looks like an interesting tire...i gave a lot of feedback to Greg to get the SM7 moved down in points. They were going to make it the same as the R7 even though the R7 is strictly faster...

BTW the RX-7 from Road Atlanta is my car. It was a fun weekend! I have to give it as much to the driver as the car for our results. Plus the track and traffic played into our hands.

That Dyno was wicked...somehow my car gained 4HP over it's previous best dyno result....
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Old 03-09-2015, 03:36 PM   #309
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That Dyno was wicked...somehow my car gained 4HP over it's previous best dyno result....
We had MCE Dyno show up to NASA AZ's event this weekend, for the second event in a row. Who cringed at that when reading? Ha. anyways...

My teammate and I, once we heard about MCE showing up and it being notorious for reading high compared to other dynos, made a plan (more on that later in this post).

For the sake of this story, our regions compliance dynojet is maybe 3 miles from the track we were at this weekend. I am untuned, and consistently put down 124.5, give or take a tenth, no matter if the CLT temps were 180* or 230*. On a dynapack, it was 122.x again give or take a tenth.

On Saturday, a few cars were sent for compliance dynos in TT. What was interesting was that a few cars did fail and most passed, however, every miata that went on, was over the max hp.

Saturday, 2 of my competitors in E were sent (1st and 2nd place) and both miatas went over their respective HP cap and were DQ'd. I was 3rd, and got bumped to 1st--not exactly how I wanted to take my 1st 1st place of the season...Anyone that was DQ'd was given the option to ballast up in order to be compliant, but many decided to not do that.

Given the rough variance which was on average, 6.5% of the difference between the local dynojet and MCE's dynojet, and taking Saturday as a warning, my teammate and I busted out the calculator and pulled our Plan B and added weight, in case we went over our reclass numbers, but was still the same P/W ratio for our class--which, for anyone that cares, I had to add 135 lbs. After all said and done, we topped off the fuel to 1" below the fuel cap, and put in a 3 ton harbor freight floor jack to the passenger floor area. Boom, exactly 135 lbs.

So Sunday comes around, and I do the first TT session, only a few laps to put down a time--as Saturday's 1st/2nd place competitors decided not to show, and 4th/5th places cars are 2 seconds slower than my times. I did a full DE4 session to practice and at the same time, we also discovered my engine only burns 1 gallon for every 15 minutes on track--win?. I tell my teammate to drive the rest of the TT sessions since he is 15 lbs heavier than I am (free ballast!) up until they (presumably) dyno us.

Sure enough, the 1st session he went out in, they direct him to the dyno. We weighed in at 2369, and then went to the dyno. They did 3 runs WITH MCE's electronics hooked up, and 2 runs based only on RPM/wheel speed, no electronics.

Again, for comparison, here are my numbers:
Local dynojet: 124.5 (give or take a tenth)
local dynapack: :122.x (give/take)
MCE dyno, W/ electronics hooked up: 129.x (give/take)
MCE dyno, W/O electronics: 131.x (give/take)

our current reclass puts us at a 17.3 P/W, taking the weight/numbers above, put us near the 18 P/W ratio.

Heres the kicker. One Miata in D who is tuned, and put down 158 on the local compliant dynojet and 159 on the dynapack he was tuned on, did well into the 170's on MCE's. When this happened, he asked to have the ECU and hood sealed, and they towed it to the local compliance dyno. Not 30 minutes after running on MCE's, they put down 157 on the dynojet.

What sucks is for YEARS, our region has been going off the local dyno and no one has ever had a problem up until this dyno has shown. Having to ballast up on some cars for them to be compliant was enough for a 7 point reclass.

From my understanding, this is the same one that shows up to Nationals? I hope this can help shed light on something/for some people to plan accordingly.
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Old 03-09-2015, 04:05 PM   #310
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El oh el.
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Old 03-09-2015, 04:12 PM   #311
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If NASA cared about anything but $$$, they would fire those morons and go off the local Dynojet at every track.

If only.
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Old 03-09-2015, 04:22 PM   #312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JSpeed6 View Post
We had MCE Dyno show up to NASA AZ's event this weekend, for the second event in a row. Who cringed at that when reading? Ha. anyways...

My teammate and I, once we heard about MCE showing up and it being notorious for reading high compared to other dynos, made a plan (more on that later in this post).

For the sake of this story, our regions compliance dynojet is maybe 3 miles from the track we were at this weekend. I am untuned, and consistently put down 124.5, give or take a tenth, no matter if the CLT temps were 180* or 230*. On a dynapack, it was 122.x again give or take a tenth.

On Saturday, a few cars were sent for compliance dynos in TT. What was interesting was that a few cars did fail and most passed, however, every miata that went on, was over the max hp.

Saturday, 2 of my competitors in E were sent (1st and 2nd place) and both miatas went over their respective HP cap and were DQ'd. I was 3rd, and got bumped to 1st--not exactly how I wanted to take my 1st 1st place of the season...Anyone that was DQ'd was given the option to ballast up in order to be compliant, but many decided to not do that.

Given the rough variance which was on average, 6.5% of the difference between the local dynojet and MCE's dynojet, and taking Saturday as a warning, my teammate and I busted out the calculator and pulled our Plan B and added weight, in case we went over our reclass numbers, but was still the same P/W ratio for our class--which, for anyone that cares, I had to add 135 lbs. After all said and done, we topped off the fuel to 1" below the fuel cap, and put in a 3 ton harbor freight floor jack to the passenger floor area. Boom, exactly 135 lbs.

So Sunday comes around, and I do the first TT session, only a few laps to put down a time--as Saturday's 1st/2nd place competitors decided not to show, and 4th/5th places cars are 2 seconds slower than my times. I did a full DE4 session to practice and at the same time, we also discovered my engine only burns 1 gallon for every 15 minutes on track--win?. I tell my teammate to drive the rest of the TT sessions since he is 15 lbs heavier than I am (free ballast!) up until they (presumably) dyno us.

Sure enough, the 1st session he went out in, they direct him to the dyno. We weighed in at 2369, and then went to the dyno. They did 3 runs WITH MCE's electronics hooked up, and 2 runs based only on RPM/wheel speed, no electronics.

Again, for comparison, here are my numbers:
Local dynojet: 124.5 (give or take a tenth)
local dynapack: :122.x (give/take)
MCE dyno, W/ electronics hooked up: 129.x (give/take)
MCE dyno, W/O electronics: 131.x (give/take)

our current reclass puts us at a 17.3 P/W, taking the weight/numbers above, put us near the 18 P/W ratio.

Heres the kicker. One Miata in D who is tuned, and put down 158 on the local compliant dynojet and 159 on the dynapack he was tuned on, did well into the 170's on MCE's. When this happened, he asked to have the ECU and hood sealed, and they towed it to the local compliance dyno. Not 30 minutes after running on MCE's, they put down 157 on the dynojet.

What sucks is for YEARS, our region has been going off the local dyno and no one has ever had a problem up until this dyno has shown. Having to ballast up on some cars for them to be compliant was enough for a 7 point reclass.

From my understanding, this is the same one that shows up to Nationals? I hope this can help shed light on something/for some people to plan accordingly.
we had the same issue at nat's last year. guys where adding 100lbs to the chassis just to race.
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Old 03-09-2015, 04:28 PM   #313
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If NASA cared about anything but $$$, they would fire those morons and go off the local Dynojet at every track.

If only.
Yup. if only.

I could only imagine that if the dyno operator was not welcomed/asked not to show/asked to leave, he probably wouldve called the national office and would have been there anyways. what do i know, im just a peon.

One competitor of mine was trying to find loopholes in the rules. our supplemental rules say that the local dyno was the one one to be used for compliance, yet at the same time, it does say those rules are subject to change and without notice, along with the reclassing sheet that says "gotta be compliant during any tech inspection." to me, a dyno is a tech inspection.

While i do feel for everyone who was DQ'd, it was definitely a shitty situation, and again, not how i wanted to get my 1st 1st place this season. Some let their ego's take over while some swallowed it and/or made plans for if/when this happened, and did what was best to get points/contingency/etc.

Hell, I would have been DQ'ed as well had I not ballasted up.
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Old 03-09-2015, 05:02 PM   #314
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Well, guess I know where TFB's dyno wasn't... this weekend.

I'm kind of cringing at what will happen if I get sent to the dyno while up at Thunderhill, MCE's home track.
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Old 03-10-2015, 01:11 AM   #315
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my engine that makes a consistent 156 as tested on two local dynojets in Orlando made a max of 169 on the MCE dyno at the west coast championships, but every time it was different.
At my local dynoes, it makes 156 +/- one all day everyday no matter the conditions or temp of the engine...

Same issues at east coast nats last year when I ran pte. Makes 132 local. checked on two dynos. on MCE it made 132, then 138, then 140, then 142 etc...

both events I had to retune my car, even though I keep a reasonable buffer to my max hp to begin with.

I agree. why continue using him? no one is happy
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Old 03-10-2015, 05:02 AM   #316
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my engine that makes a consistent 156 as tested on two local dynojets in Orlando made a max of 169 on the MCE dyno at the west coast championships, but every time it was different.
At my local dynoes, it makes 156 +/- one all day everyday no matter the conditions or temp of the engine...

Same issues at east coast nats last year when I ran pte. Makes 132 local. checked on two dynos. on MCE it made 132, then 138, then 140, then 142 etc...

both events I had to retune my car, even though I keep a reasonable buffer to my max hp to begin with.

I agree. why continue using him? no one is happy
$
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Old 03-10-2015, 11:12 PM   #317
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By the way. I took my car to the dyno today for a health check since I just got it back from California a couple weeks ago and right one cue it made 155.7, 155.6, and 155.3.
All after making 169 and all sorts of other various numbers above 156 on the MCE dyno at Sonoma.
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Old 03-10-2015, 11:38 PM   #318
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It sounds like there is enough hardish evidence to make a formal complaint to NASA. I'd like to run nationals at VIR since it's only an hour from my house. But I really don't want to deal with the dyno bullshit since I can't just add ballast to be 'complaint.'
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Old 03-11-2015, 01:35 AM   #319
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It sounds like there is enough hardish evidence to make a formal complaint to NASA. I'd like to run nationals at VIR since it's only an hour from my house. But I really don't want to deal with the dyno bullshit since I can't just add ballast to be 'complaint.'
from what i heard/not verified, almost all the cars that went over HP caps were miatas. Honda Challenge, GTS3/TT3/2 cars were all under. odd.
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Old 03-11-2015, 01:51 AM   #320
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It sounds like there is enough hardish evidence to make a formal complaint to NASA. I'd like to run nationals at VIR since it's only an hour from my house. But I really don't want to deal with the dyno bullshit since I can't just add ballast to be 'complaint.'
You are assuming that well substantiated evidence would actually make a difference, as if it were a court. There is no court, there is no board, it is an autocracy. This is both the strength and weakness of the organization.

But yeah I suppose if enough people raised the issue as a single voice, some change could potentially take place.
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