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Race Prep Miata race-only chat. 949 Racing - Rim & tires

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Old 07-29-2015, 05:15 PM   #441
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^Very cool. I didn't mean to come off wrong, I'm not trying to say it's impossible, I think it's an awesome idea. I was just surprised Greg responded that way with my request, and was curious if anyone had heard that too.
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Old 07-29-2015, 06:00 PM   #442
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Not sure if that means he won't give it to you, or whether he thinks it can't be done.

Greg's shitty attitude is one of the primary reasons why I don't run with NASA anymore.
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Old 07-29-2015, 09:31 PM   #443
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All the "shitty" stuff that bugs everyone doesn't bother me. Greg has always been nice to me and I've been nice back.
NASA is fun to race with when you aren't spending gobs of money and worrying about winning the whole time. You west coast guys have MC, us mid-western/East coasters have nothing but NASA. Ill keep running with NASA as long as my friends run with NASA.
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Old 07-30-2015, 01:20 AM   #444
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After my recent dumb stuff happening in my region I'm pretty much done with NASA as well. Thankfully there are other options here in AZ like ProAutoSports or just go to SoCal.
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Old 07-30-2015, 05:02 PM   #445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Codersozer View Post
All the "shitty" stuff that bugs everyone doesn't bother me. Greg has always been nice to me and I've been nice back.
NASA is fun to race with when you aren't spending gobs of money and worrying about winning the whole time. You west coast guys have MC, us mid-western/East coasters have nothing but NASA. Ill keep running with NASA as long as my friends run with NASA.
I think we might be lucky with our low-bs regions. I've always had a lot of fun running with NASA South-East. I also run a NB1 points car, so my communication with Greg is limited :-D
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Old 07-30-2015, 07:13 PM   #446
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So, everyone is discussing these high hp heavy weight reclasses and suggesting they will be faster. I really don't think that's the case. This seemed to have started after a heavy car won east nats last year, 2800lb (I think) rx7. The rx7 had a lot of straight speed, but that's cause it was making class power to weight on the points system, which will always be more hp than a dyno reclass for a decent handling car. Additionally with the points system, you get an extra hp mod factor for being heavy - you don't get that benefit with a heavy dyno reclass.

In other words, if a miata dyno reclassed to PTE* at 2800lbs, it's still going to be 17.3:1 ish power to weight ratio and allowed to make up to 162 whp . A 2800lb points based car with modifiers can make 16.1:1 ratio, making up to 174 whp. Thus, the benefit to being heavy only really applies to points based cars, and a points based miata will never make enough hp to run at class power to weight ratio above say 2500 lbs. Simply not gonna happen without giving up points for a proper suspension and good tires.

Just my two cents before people run out at spend time and money trying to make their cars weigh 2600 pounds.
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Old 07-30-2015, 07:59 PM   #447
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I don't think anyone is arguing heavy dyno reclass over heavy points based car. If you have a NB2, NA6 and possibly even NA8 your options are limited.
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Old 07-30-2015, 10:42 PM   #448
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I don't think anyone is arguing heavy dyno reclass over heavy points based car. If you have a NB2, NA6 and possibly even NA8 your options are limited.
Agreed, but it seems that people are trying for heavy dyno reclasses over normal weight dyno reclasses. I don't believe there is any significant laptime there.

Likely faster with less weight and a fat, constant hp curve than high weight and a standard hp curve.
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Old 07-31-2015, 08:30 AM   #449
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Originally Posted by speedengineer View Post
Agreed, but it seems that people are trying for heavy dyno reclasses over normal weight dyno reclasses. I don't believe there is any significant laptime there.

Likely faster with less weight and a fat, constant hp curve than high weight and a standard hp curve.
If two cars with identical power to weight ratios and aerodynamics are traveling at 80 mph, which one will accelerate faster? The one with less weight and power, or the one with more weight and power?

And on your other point, my impression was that Greg looks at area under the curve as a factor when assigning weight when he gives a dyno reclass anyway?
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Old 07-31-2015, 08:48 AM   #450
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<p>
Quote:
Originally Posted by speedengineer View Post
So, everyone is discussing these high hp heavy weight reclasses and suggesting they will be faster. I really don't think that's the case. This seemed to have started after a heavy car won east nats last year, 2800lb (I think) rx7. The rx7 had a lot of straight speed, but that's cause it was making class power to weight on the points system, which will always be more hp than a dyno reclass for a decent handling car. Additionally with the points system, you get an extra hp mod factor for being heavy - you don't get that benefit with a heavy dyno reclass. In other words, if a miata dyno reclassed to PTE* at 2800lbs, it's still going to be 17.3:1 ish power to weight ratio and allowed to make up to 162 whp . A 2800lb points based car with modifiers can make 16.1:1 ratio, making up to 174 whp. <strong>Thus, the benefit to being heavy only really applies to points based cars,</strong> and a points based miata will never make enough hp to run at class power to weight ratio above say 2500 lbs. Simply not gonna happen without giving up points for a proper suspension and good tires. Just my two cents before people run out at spend time and money trying to make their cars weigh 2600 pounds.
</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Why would points based cars have any more or less advantage than dyno-reclass when heavier? &nbsp;The heavier car suggestion is for a dyno-reclass only anyway, because you won't make your p:w limit otherwise.&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>
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If two cars with identical power to weight ratios and aerodynamics are traveling at 80 mph, which one will accelerate faster? The one with less weight and power, or the one with more weight and power? And on your other point, my impression was that Greg looks at area under the curve as a factor when assigning weight when he gives a dyno reclass anyway?
</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>I think he is looking at VVT vs. non-VVT. &nbsp;You might be right, but I haven't seen enough indicators from him or the rules that he is doing that on a broad scale.</p>
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Old 07-31-2015, 10:33 AM   #451
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<p></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Why would points based cars have any more or less advantage than dyno-reclass when heavier? &nbsp;The heavier car suggestion is for a dyno-reclass only anyway, because you won't make your p:w limit otherwise.</p>
A dyno reclassed Miata will never be at the weight to hp limit for the class, it will never happen. Theoretically, on points it is possible to be at the limit. When classed on points, there is a table that has a weight to hp modifier based on the competition weight. The modifier gets worse the lighter the car is, so a heavier car will have less of a weight to hp penalty. Every 50lbs below 3200lbs cost you 0.05 in weight to hp. So, all other things being equal a car weighing 2600lbs could be at 17.15 to 1, while a 2400lb car would be at maxed at 17.35 to 1, for PTE. So, the 2600lb car could have 151whp and the 2400lb car would be limited to 138whp for PTE. Which one will be faster, no idea, probably depends on the track.
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Old 07-31-2015, 11:09 AM   #452
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That's not what he is saying. Look at what he bolded in the quote.

A heavier (within reason) points car will be faster as will a dyno car.
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Old 07-31-2015, 11:26 AM   #453
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Mike is right. The points based car has a bigger advantage because the weight modifier table gives a better power:weight ratio for every 50lbs added. The dyno reclass car has a fixed ratio of about 18.1:1 for E and 17.1:1 for E*.

I don't think Andrew's argument has anything to do with the modifier table though. I think he's just saying that HP is king and everyone should be running super heavy so they can run more power.
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Old 07-31-2015, 11:27 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by FatKao View Post
That's not what he is saying. Look at what he bolded in the quote.

A heavier (within reason) points car will be faster as will a dyno car.
The problem is exactly as Jason stated, no matter how heavy you make the car you will never get to the class limit on a dyno reclass. On points it is theoretically possible but not practical as you have to give up suspension points for engine mods.

Here is recent dyno reclass for a heavier Miata, 91 with a 99 swap. 2500lbs at 136whp for PTE. Ratio is 18.38 to 1, no where near the class limit. The same car on points at 2500 would be allowed to run 152whp but there would be no way to get a 1.6 to that power level with the same suspension, tires and aero.
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Old 07-31-2015, 11:41 AM   #455
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The problem is exactly as Jason stated, no matter how heavy you make the car you will never get to the class limit on a dyno reclass. On points it is theoretically possible but not practical as you have to give up suspension points for engine mods.

Here is recent dyno reclass for a heavier Miata, 91 with a 99 swap. 2500lbs at 136whp for PTE. Ratio is 18.38 to 1, no where near the class limit. The same car on points at 2500 would be allowed to run 152whp but there would be no way to get a 1.6 to that power level with the same suspension, tires and aero.
Please find me where in this thread someone has said a dyno reclass car will get the same HP limit as a points car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpreston View Post
Mike is right. The points based car has a bigger advantage because the weight modifier table gives a better power:weight ratio for every 50lbs added. The dyno reclass car has a fixed ratio of about 18.1:1 for E and 17.1:1 for E*.
No one is saying he's wrong. But there has been consensus on that issue since 2013(?) so I'm not sure why it's relevant in a discussion about making dyno classed cars heavier.
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Old 07-31-2015, 11:53 AM   #456
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The problem is exactly as Jason stated, no matter how heavy you make the car you will never get to the class limit on a dyno reclass. On points it is theoretically possible but not practical as you have to give up suspension points for engine mods.

Here is recent dyno reclass for a heavier Miata, 91 with a 99 swap. 2500lbs at 136whp for PTE. Ratio is 18.38 to 1, no where near the class limit. The same car on points at 2500 would be allowed to run 152whp but there would be no way to get a 1.6 to that power level with the same suspension, tires and aero.
I'm not sure what your point is.

There is a very real point of crossover where a heavy 17.x PTE* reclass car will be faster than a lighter 16.x points car. If you assume similar shaped power curves, which I think is realistic, you can assume constant horsepower and calculate it.

There are also, obviously, cases where the points car will be better - if you can make the power to get there depends on what your starting point is. Everyone already knew that.
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Old 07-31-2015, 11:55 AM   #457
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<p></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>Why would points based cars have any more or less advantage than dyno-reclass when heavier? </p>
This is why responded.
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Old 07-31-2015, 11:57 AM   #458
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<p>definitely not calling into question that a points car can be faster than a dyno. &nbsp;I am just calling bs&nbsp;that &quot;being heavy only applies to points cars&quot; (hence why i bolded it). &nbsp;Its just not true.</p>
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Old 07-31-2015, 04:35 PM   #459
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Originally Posted by speedengineer View Post
Agreed, but it seems that people are trying for heavy dyno reclasses over normal weight dyno reclasses. I don't believe there is any significant laptime there.

Likely faster with less weight and a fat, constant hp curve than high weight and a standard hp curve.
To counter your argument, I have one question:

How much did the car that beat you at EC Nats last year weigh?

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Old 07-31-2015, 07:48 PM   #460
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I think the rx7 was points built. Thus proving Jason's theory right.
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