Prepping for the cars first track day
09-05-2015, 03:37 PM
#44
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Prepping for the cars first track day
Reading some of the back and forth on slicks, intermediate run groups, etc.
Been instructing with NASA for a bit now- helping run events in other capacities for about 3 years, as well as race TT with them and started track days with them back in the day.
For most drivers, quick advancement through the run group levels should be done with caution. Being in the intermediate and advanced run groups isn't just about putting down fast times, it's about fully understanding track etiquette. How to merge in and out of pit lane, being hyper aware of cars coming up on you and where, when and how to give them safe point byes. Being hyperaware of not just the straight in front of you, and the turn way up ahead, but also the flagger that you're driving past, considering how close you'll be to that car you've been catching up to when you're going over that blind hill, or being aware of that vette that just barely popped into your rear view when you were in the middle of the straight, and knowing you'll probably need to position yourself to give a point by in 4-5 turns, and knowing without a doubt what the black flag, or red flag, or black flag with red circle means when you see it, and acting accordingly.
Even if you can go and do a hot lap within a few seconds of SM records, driving safely with all that in mind simply takes building up track hours.
Case in point- this was posted by some kid I'm in a facebook group with. He's been throwing money at his Miata. Turbo, semi-built engine, full (poser-boi) aero, shitty coilovers. He did two track days with SCCA Track Night in America with no turbo yet, but on 245 Maxxis. Then he strapped the turbo on and 275 R7s, promoted himself up to the advanced run group (I seriously don't understand this TNiA ****), and stuffed it into his buddy (also novice with too much tire, aero and power) after giving him a point by at the end of the front straight.
Lap two, first session.
This is a an extreme case, but too often I see people show up with big power and big, r-comp tires, and it's their first or second track day, and ****, I certainly don't want to be getting into the car with them, or have other people be on track with them.
Anyway, /rant. Obviously most people here get it, but with the considerations about tires and run groups on the first page, figured I'd try to drive the point home.
Been instructing with NASA for a bit now- helping run events in other capacities for about 3 years, as well as race TT with them and started track days with them back in the day.
For most drivers, quick advancement through the run group levels should be done with caution. Being in the intermediate and advanced run groups isn't just about putting down fast times, it's about fully understanding track etiquette. How to merge in and out of pit lane, being hyper aware of cars coming up on you and where, when and how to give them safe point byes. Being hyperaware of not just the straight in front of you, and the turn way up ahead, but also the flagger that you're driving past, considering how close you'll be to that car you've been catching up to when you're going over that blind hill, or being aware of that vette that just barely popped into your rear view when you were in the middle of the straight, and knowing you'll probably need to position yourself to give a point by in 4-5 turns, and knowing without a doubt what the black flag, or red flag, or black flag with red circle means when you see it, and acting accordingly.
Even if you can go and do a hot lap within a few seconds of SM records, driving safely with all that in mind simply takes building up track hours.
Case in point- this was posted by some kid I'm in a facebook group with. He's been throwing money at his Miata. Turbo, semi-built engine, full (poser-boi) aero, shitty coilovers. He did two track days with SCCA Track Night in America with no turbo yet, but on 245 Maxxis. Then he strapped the turbo on and 275 R7s, promoted himself up to the advanced run group (I seriously don't understand this TNiA ****), and stuffed it into his buddy (also novice with too much tire, aero and power) after giving him a point by at the end of the front straight.
Lap two, first session.
This is a an extreme case, but too often I see people show up with big power and big, r-comp tires, and it's their first or second track day, and ****, I certainly don't want to be getting into the car with them, or have other people be on track with them.
Anyway, /rant. Obviously most people here get it, but with the considerations about tires and run groups on the first page, figured I'd try to drive the point home.
I am going to go ahead and respond to this since I was the event manager at the event that picture comes from.
Neither drivers were novice. The S2000 driver came in with experience, was respectful, showed courtesy on track and had good observations through multiple conversations I had with him in the two events he ran advanced with us. The driver in the Miata was not self-promoted to advanced group. He had multiple track days before he first ran with us at TNIA, and he has run every NJMP event this year and that event was his sixth event with us. His first couple were in Intermediate group and he showed heads-up driving, good demeanor, good awareness of situations and a respectfulness of his car - which is his baby - in a way that I really thought was producing the good behavior I was seeing on track. I had seen no indication that he was going to be anything other than respectful on track and his three events with us in advanced group reinforced that.
They went out to run together to lead-follow and the combination of comfort and trust in each other led to a poor result.
Sometimes, despite all the words, despite me assuring them there are no trophies, that people shouldn't engage in close-quarters race-type driving, people make mistakes. This week I have had 260 Track Night entrants at three different events with 109 of them being novices. (about 60 of those novices had never been on a track) This was the only incident.
Last edited by sixshooter; 09-06-2015 at 08:40 AM.
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09-07-2015, 12:24 AM
#46
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It seems my facts weren't quite dead on. My point remains- big power, sticky tires, and limited experience on track should be combined with caution.
Last edited by dasting; 09-07-2015 at 08:14 AM.
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09-07-2015, 08:09 AM
#47
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Prepping for the cars first track day
Pretentious as in having seen so many examples of asshattery in our years of track experience that we don't automatically give the benefit of the doubt to people who bend cars in a non-racing environment?
< Yep. Guilty as ****. I've seen a moron spin a Viper in the first turn out of the pit exit in DE1 right in front of my student. He didn't make a single turn yet. I've seen c7's with all the nannies turned on go sideways into the tires at the slowest part of a track with a retiree at the wheel. I've been there when the guy who swore he was experienced and awesome on Saturday morning went home before lunch with a totalled M3. I've listened to the 350z driver who rationalized he could finish the session even though his brake fluid had boiled because he didn't want to give up a moment of track time.
I've got more.
Yep. I'm pretentious. Very.
< Yep. Guilty as ****. I've seen a moron spin a Viper in the first turn out of the pit exit in DE1 right in front of my student. He didn't make a single turn yet. I've seen c7's with all the nannies turned on go sideways into the tires at the slowest part of a track with a retiree at the wheel. I've been there when the guy who swore he was experienced and awesome on Saturday morning went home before lunch with a totalled M3. I've listened to the 350z driver who rationalized he could finish the session even though his brake fluid had boiled because he didn't want to give up a moment of track time.
I've got more.
Yep. I'm pretentious. Very.
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09-07-2015, 09:00 AM
#48
Seriously, I don't get the pretentious comment. ?? We do have a lot of folks here with a lot of experience that can give valuable advice. So far as I can tell, that's all I've seen.
Oh . . . and some grammar/spelling corrections, but that's what we do.
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09-09-2015, 02:09 AM
#49
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Personally, I'm not a fan of aluminum seats, I'd rather have FIA-approved composite ones. I have Recaro Pole Positions, they're a good streetable race seat. They do cost quite a bit more, though.
You gain huge amounts of vertical clearance by cutting out the rear seat mounts, but that removes the ability to easily bolt the factory seat back in.
--Ian
You gain huge amounts of vertical clearance by cutting out the rear seat mounts, but that removes the ability to easily bolt the factory seat back in.
--Ian
Unfortunately not in the budget right now.I'm going to meet up with Aidan soon to see how I fit in his car and decide where to go from here.
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09-09-2015, 02:40 AM
#50
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Regarding advancement in the runs groups, Will made some great points - there is more to it than just being fast. I need to work on ingraining what each flag is and what to do when I see one and to remember to keep looking up at the flaggers so I do see them.
Now I do only have one track day under my belt, but novice did not seem like a good group for me to run in for future track days, at least at this event... One guy and myself were the fastest in the group, a few kinda close, and the rest were causing heavy traffic jams all over the track. I would rarely get more than two laps without getting stuck behind someone or a line of cars in each session that takes a lap or two to get through, and then have to pass one or more of those people from the line over a few more laps. I never had to give a point-by the entire day. Somehow in the last session I got 6 consecutive laps with no one in front or behind me. My friends in intermediate had a similar problem with a particular driver in their group, but it was only one driver.
Like Aidan, I am happy to run in novice on a new track. Based on my singular experience so far, I am hesitant to run novice again on a track I know or did well on. The fact Aidan has run in that group 8 times (not sure if they're all the same track), perhaps I should be entertaining the idea.
Now I do only have one track day under my belt, but novice did not seem like a good group for me to run in for future track days, at least at this event... One guy and myself were the fastest in the group, a few kinda close, and the rest were causing heavy traffic jams all over the track. I would rarely get more than two laps without getting stuck behind someone or a line of cars in each session that takes a lap or two to get through, and then have to pass one or more of those people from the line over a few more laps. I never had to give a point-by the entire day. Somehow in the last session I got 6 consecutive laps with no one in front or behind me. My friends in intermediate had a similar problem with a particular driver in their group, but it was only one driver.
Like Aidan, I am happy to run in novice on a new track. Based on my singular experience so far, I am hesitant to run novice again on a track I know or did well on. The fact Aidan has run in that group 8 times (not sure if they're all the same track), perhaps I should be entertaining the idea.
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09-09-2015, 02:57 AM
#51
I'm 6'5" and size big, and an aluminum seat is the only option. The car has a treasure coast hard top, full cage, window net and right side net and I still fit. Luckily I find the Ultrashield VS Halo full containment seat to be pretty comfortable and supportive.
Since the time that I bought mine they've come out with the Road Race VS Halo, if I bought another seat it would probably be that one.
Here's picture I just threw up since the image hosting system on the site is nuked right now. Car is in pieces because of a last minute scramble to make it out to a race weekend but you get the idea.
Since the time that I bought mine they've come out with the Road Race VS Halo, if I bought another seat it would probably be that one.
Here's picture I just threw up since the image hosting system on the site is nuked right now. Car is in pieces because of a last minute scramble to make it out to a race weekend but you get the idea.
Last edited by Arca_ex; 09-09-2015 at 11:22 AM.
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09-09-2015, 09:10 AM
#52
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I have a Kirkey aluminininium seat and it is more comfortable than most of the fancy fiberglass seats I have had the occasion to ride in. YMMV.
You should be able to recall from memory to an instructor where each of the flag stations are on the track prior to being moved up. This is somewhat more daunting at Sebring with its 17 turns.
You should be able to recall from memory to an instructor where each of the flag stations are on the track prior to being moved up. This is somewhat more daunting at Sebring with its 17 turns.
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09-09-2015, 09:35 AM
#53
I'm with the others on AL seats. I find my US SM seats to be extremely comfortable. Just make sure you mount the AL seat correctly -- they need a good back brace tied into the roll bar/cage structure.
Don't be in a hurry to move up in run groups. Enjoy your time with an instructor. When you're ready, they'll promote you. Organizations want people out of Novice as soon as safely possible to make room for new blood (I mean, customers).
Don't be in a hurry to move up in run groups. Enjoy your time with an instructor. When you're ready, they'll promote you. Organizations want people out of Novice as soon as safely possible to make room for new blood (I mean, customers).
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09-09-2015, 10:31 AM
#54
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I wish I could get a particular instructor to ride with me again to give me pointers on my line. I feel like I could learn so much more now that these years have passed. He was a TT record holder and a very quiet, focused person. Our paths have not recently crossed.
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09-09-2015, 12:34 PM
#55
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<p>My 8 track days were at 2 different tracks.</p><p>I really like the instruction and only just moved up to intermediate. After the first session my instructor said that I should move up to intermediate, novice was just too slow that day. I replied "but I want the instruction" so he rode with me in intermediate for the rest of the day.</p><p>Some days the novice group is slower than others. That particular day I was having trouble working on improving my braking zones/technique because I kept running into people braking way to early.</p><p>I've found that most organizations let you move up if you are ready. So I feel fine signing up for novice, and if the novice group is too slow that day move up.</p><p>Another note is that PIR with BMW club is where I run most often, and in the intermediate group they still only allow passing with point-by's on the 2 straights. No passing in corners or anything like that. So its basically a faster novice group with people who are a little more attentive. I don't have any issue staying there for a while.</p>
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09-09-2015, 04:43 PM
#56
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<p>My biggest issue with Novice group isn't the speed, it's the unpredictability. It's someone slamming on the brakes at an apex, or pointing by at the very end of a straight (or pointing by in an zone that's not an actual passing zone) or other stupid stuff like that.</p><p>I plan on running intermediate everywhere from here on out. At ORP on the 21st though I'm of course running A Group since that's really the intermediate group (no group for first timers at this event).</p>
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09-09-2015, 05:30 PM
#58
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Yepp. It's just part of it. Suddenly drivers are going along at a much quicker pace with the opportunity to push their cars harder, and really start finding the limits... By going beyond them. It's just a part of it sometimes, and you hope that you don't stuff it and get intimately acquainted with a tire wall. You also hope that you're surrounded by people with good foresight and situational awareness that no one else gets involved.
I like NASA's DE structure.
DE1- novices, always have instructors in car. If you have show good car control, good lines, and attention to flaggers, it's not terribly hard to move into DE2.
DE2- instructor in car for session #1, and remaining sessions upon request. Typically there are less trains on track, but still going at a 7-8/10ths pace or so. You can stay here for a while and learn the tracks in your region, learn your car, and continue to get experience with track etiquette in a more controller environment, without having clueless people driving 70mph down the straight in your way.
DE3- your first chance to really start driving 9/10ths or faster at a consistent rate. You expected to intimately know track etiquette at this point, but may not yet know the full limits of 10/10ths driving. Consequently, you see lots of cars in the grass here.
DE4- basically instructors, long time track drivers, racers just taking a practice day. The pace is fast, 10/10ths. If you're in a low hp car, you're expected to see every high hp car coming up in your mirror and point them by so neither of you really needs to give up any momentum, and take the turns just as fast or faster as them. No all season tires, heck, most will be on a 100tw or better.
I like this a little more than the basic, novice, intermediate, advanced line up.
Sorry for thread derailment.
I like NASA's DE structure.
DE1- novices, always have instructors in car. If you have show good car control, good lines, and attention to flaggers, it's not terribly hard to move into DE2.
DE2- instructor in car for session #1, and remaining sessions upon request. Typically there are less trains on track, but still going at a 7-8/10ths pace or so. You can stay here for a while and learn the tracks in your region, learn your car, and continue to get experience with track etiquette in a more controller environment, without having clueless people driving 70mph down the straight in your way.
DE3- your first chance to really start driving 9/10ths or faster at a consistent rate. You expected to intimately know track etiquette at this point, but may not yet know the full limits of 10/10ths driving. Consequently, you see lots of cars in the grass here.
DE4- basically instructors, long time track drivers, racers just taking a practice day. The pace is fast, 10/10ths. If you're in a low hp car, you're expected to see every high hp car coming up in your mirror and point them by so neither of you really needs to give up any momentum, and take the turns just as fast or faster as them. No all season tires, heck, most will be on a 100tw or better.
I like this a little more than the basic, novice, intermediate, advanced line up.
Sorry for thread derailment.
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09-09-2015, 06:10 PM
#60
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Actually, de3 was 9/10ths to 10.5/10ths depending upon the driver. Much of DE4 is 7/10ths to 9/10ths because the edge is worn off a bit and a lot of the instructors are just cruising instead of being superduperserious. The instructors know there will be another trackday and don't have to squeeze everything out of this one.
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