MechE

Hey guys,

I am trying to get my car on the track before the end of the season and have a lengthy list. Would you mind reviewing it and providing any feedback or pointers?

The car is a 1995 Miata with a Flyin' Miata II Turbo Kit with Hydra Nemesis 2.5 ECU, and has been setup well for AutoX by the previous owner. The car came with a set of old 225/50/R14 Hankook C71 slicks and 205/45/R16 Falkin 360 tread wear crappy tires. My plan is to run the Hankooks, and if they wear out, finish the day with the Falkins.

Here's the shopping list:
-Carbotech XP10 pads for F&R (can't decide between 1521 or AX6 pads for street use - Carbotech says they can share the same rotor as the "track only" XP10)
-Centric rotors (probably skipping the cyro-treated option)
-Hard Dog M1 Hard Core Roll Bar (Hardtop version for future hardtop)
-ATE "blue" brake fluid

Here's the fabrication/labor list:
-Seal off air flow through the radiator (there is currently a clear line of sight from the bumper through the passenger-front wheel!)
-Install some sort of hood extraction vent. Already have a spare hood, wrx bumper vents and a mini cooper S scoop - I just need to decide what is best and install something. I plan to improve overall aero for the track and autoX over time, so want to make good decisions from the start.
-Make a flat underbody panel to seal the bottom of the bumper/intercooler/radiator and engine bay all the way to the center line of the front axles. Someone must make this already and could use the time saved installing something pre-fabbed... Any recommendations?

One thing I realized is that this car does not have OBDII, or even the factory computer... I can't use my OBDII reader and TrackAddict App on my phone to record laptimes and create video overlays like I did in my Mazdaspeed3. :/ I've been looking around and it appears that the AIM products are the only data loggers that talk to the Hyrda Nemesis via Serial? Is there anything else out there? I really want to run something and it looks like the AIM Solo is my only affordable choice.

This will be quite the test for this car. Currently has two AutoXs under it's belt since I got it and going to jump straight to Oregon Raceway Park with the GF, sharing the car between two groups. Perhaps planning to take it back home on a trailer would be wise.

Picture provided for fun.

Thanks!

codrus

Is it *your* first track day, or just the car's first track day?

Which radiator is in it? You want one of the newer multi-pass designs, like the 949, TSE, or newer FM ones. Radiator ducting is extremely important for good cooling on-track. You may or may not need hood extraction vents -- ducting, removal of AC condenser, TSE radiator, and modified/extended stock undertray has been doing a good job of keeping my car cool on track.

As far as the roll bar goes, be aware that the non-HT bar actually fits under a hardtop, it's just that you can't use the side latches. The HT bar sits further back to make space for them, but that results in a lower overall height. Depending on how tall you are, that may or may not be relevant. I'm 6' and need all roll bar clearance I can get.

As far as data logging, what's your goal? If you're trying to make cool-looking youtube videos, then yeah, you may need something like the AIM (IIRC the Race Technologies DL1 had code in it to talk to Hydra 2.6. Not 2.5 or 2.7 though). If your goal is to analyze and improve your driving, then the most useful data are the accelerometers and the GPS position data. Secondary useful are the driver inputs (TPS, brake pressure, steering angle), and the engine RPM. Of those, the only 2 you can actually get from the Hydra are the TPS and RPM, and those are easy to tap with analog inputs on the data logger.

As far as data logger choice, far and away the most important distinction between them is the ease of use on the analysis software. I have heard decent things about the AIM software, but I've never used it myself.

What rotors & calipers?

--Ian

aidandj

iTrader: (5)

<p>Whats up steve. I was behind you at the last pca auto-x.</p><p>I showed you my little GPS module and there is actually one more spot in my group buy. Not sure if it will be ready for your next track day but you could borrow mine no problem.</p><p>I also showed you my rollbar, and how its higher than the hardtop version. IMO the non-hardtop version is the way to go.</p><p>Car was fast at the auto-x hope to see you out at the track. Which track day are you planning on going to?</p>

hornetball

iTrader: (4)

I use TrackAddict no problemo. I don't have engine/car stuff on it, but still get accelerations, speeds, laptime, etc. You just need a decent GPS module (see Aidan's post above).

OEM undertray is a pretty good piece and pretty cheap, even brand new. If you have a Mazdacomp account, I think they're about $45. They can usually be trimmed to accomodate intercooler pipes.

sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

Use the Falkens for the first day. Trust me. You will get a much better feel for the car with them. They will let you find the balance of the car in a way the slicks will not. You need that first. Find out if it wants to oversteer or understeer in its current configuration and learn to catch it when it does. Learn to feather it and play with the balance.

The slicks won't talk to you before they let go. They won't warn you. They won't let you get a feel for the car in the same way. And you will be going much faster when the slicks let go and the likelihood of bending the car is much greater. The slicks will cover up mistakes that you should be learning from to improve as a driver and as a new learner of that track. Also think of your girl and her needs to learn and be safe. You will thank me later.

sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

And timing? First, no organizations allow it for beginners. Second, if it is your first track day you will be so busy learning the track that you will not have time to worry about time. Third, your times will suck so badly they aren't worth worrying about until you have done at least two entire weekends at the location. Worry about where to put the car, turn in points, turn in speeds, apexes, track out room, etc. You will see when you get there.

aidandj

iTrader: (5)

<p>I care to differ about timing. Its really cool to see improvements over the weekend. Not in a competition sense but it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling to see your improvements in paper.</p><p>He is a quick driver, and I hope the last autocross I met him at wasn't his first ever, or I would be a bit embarrassed.&nbsp;</p>

codrus

IMHO the best way to do that is with a GoPro. You can get timing data off it, but after you're done running.

--Ian

aidandj

iTrader: (5)

<p>I run racechrono with my phone in the center console cubby.</p>

Midtenn

iTrader: (15)

If it is your first track day ever, I recommend not even hooking up a lap timer. Work on your track and car awareness. It can lead to a distraction that you don't need when still learning the basics. Its also one less stress when it is not working properly.

Schuyler

iTrader: (1)

<p>My first track day: I used a lap timer with an external GPS and GoPro, and I had it visible to me while driving. I broke later/less, watched what it did to split times, and enjoyed being able to see myself improve.</p><p>Also used slicks. While I never spun, I don't think I got as good a feel for the car as I could have.</p><p>But, I'm also a *****, and&nbsp;broke for the kink at CMP :( &nbsp; &nbsp;(I was hitting the kink at like ~100&nbsp;AFTER tapping the brakes, and could have easily gone way faster through there. Just the whole &quot;you hit it, then the car slides over a lane or two&quot; thing didn't seem too appealing at the time.</p><p>Tl;Dr:&nbsp;So if you're like Aidan and go ***** out into tire walls, maybe consider the Falkens.</p>

Seefo

iTrader: (5)

<p></p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>list looks good for the most part. &nbsp;I encourage you to keep an eye on the temps just in case. &nbsp;If its the car's first time on track, there is a tendency for unexpected things to crop up.</p><p>You don't need OBD2 for laptimes, but you would for TP or temps to be recorded. &nbsp;</p><p>I think its really up to you and your&nbsp;instructor on a laptimer. &nbsp;My last autocross student was basically a DE2/DE3 student by his 3rd session of the day, so we got the laptimer out for one&nbsp;session a day&nbsp;to get a feel for areas he could work on. &nbsp;If you find that you are doing pretty well with managing everything, I wouldn't hesitate to do it or ask your instructor if he is fine with it.&nbsp;</p><p>&nbsp;</p><p>As a courtesy I would ask. &nbsp;Takes some courage getting into a DE1 car with a turbo and slicks, especially if its the student's first time out.</p>

MechE

Hi Ian,

The radiator is a Koyo V1139. Not the thickest or one of the multi-pass designs. I was hoping that would be good enough when combined with good ducting and extraction vents, and leaving the AC condenser for now. This is a third car, and its roll is to be our toy to take for a fun drive, occasionally drive to work, AutoX, track days, and it would be nice to have AC for all of that. AC would be turned off when racing or doing a HPDE day, of course.

I talked with William today at Hard Dog Racing and he suggested use the measurements from the site to determine what bar fits me well, taking into consideration of my height with and without a helmet on, and the proximity of the bar itself. I'll mock it up tonight and see what fits best. Unfortunately they are really behind on production for most of their roll bars, so I may be out of luck getting it in time for an HPDE day.

My goal with data logging would be both make cool looking videos and analyze data to improve my driving. Its a bummer you can only get TPS and RPM out of the Hydra... I suppose that could potentially open more doors though if I just tap into the sensors on the car. Any suggestions for a device that does it all and has decent software?

I was planning on buying Centric "Premium High Carbon Brake Rotors," and potentially even the cryogenically treated ones. The calipers are the stock '95 calipers.

Hey Aidan! Nice to see you here. I do remember your GPS module - send me a link for more info on your group buy. I see you are an EE... I can see us being friends.

I'll see how mocking up the roll bar goes... What I learned from William may help me nail down the right one for me.

I was planning on going to the event at ORP on the September 21st, but it is full and has a wait list. Team Continental has one on October 3rd, but only 3 people are registered at this point and they cancelled the drivers school. If that gets cancelled, this car might not see a track this year. :(

When I was at ORP in March, TrackAddict only recorded the engine data in the first session, and the rest just relied on GPS in the phone to estimate speed, which wasn't that precise - likely 100% due to the cheap cell phone GPS module. I didn't notice it until I got home, so never had a chance to try and correct it. Anyways, having driver inputs and engine data is nice, but it certainly isn't everything.

I have an OEM undertray and almost installed it the other weekend, but once I got under the car I started looking at just making one piece to cover the bottom and attach to some sides... Neither happened, so perhaps I should just carve it up and install it around the intercooler tubing.

Okay, great advice. I didn't think about the nature of slicks vs. street tires, and didn't really think about my GF either, lol. I haven't been able to get her to come to an AutoX event and she's never driven a car hard, so it hasn't really crossed my mind she would drive near the limit. Falkens it is.

Total newb. Haha, not quite... That was my 13th AutoX, but only the second time racing the Miata. I've had the car for a month and a half now and have only put about 200 miles on it. I was actually a little shocked with how well I did, which is perhaps a final nail in the coffin for my Mazdaspeed3. I unlocked the powers of steering with throttle on my second time out and driving at the limit in RWD just felt so much more natural to me. I've never been able to drive that fast before.

To address all the concerns about track experience:
I have only been on a road course once before, and that was in March this year at ORP (CCW direction) in my Mazdaspeed3. I ran with Team Continental in the novice class and took their driving school. My instructor was awesome and after a few laps said that he is going to smooth out the AutoXer in me and then we'll focus on tackling the corners I need to work on the most. After 3 sessions he took me for a couple rides in his S2000 race car and demonstrated the things he wanted me to change between my sessions - that by far was the most effective way for me to learn: my lap times showed immediate improvement. My fastest lap without traffic in my first session was around 2:24 (min:sec) and he helped me get down to 2:07 as my best, and a 4 or 5 consecutive laps of a consistent 2:08. A few guys I knew that were experienced on the track and had similar cars were in the 2:03-2:10 range. At the end of the day he signed me off for solo driving. I have a lot to learn still and I always ask instructors to ride with me (the picture I included has a seasoned AutoX'r riding shotgun with me) - I'm always looking for ways to improve. After riding with me, I rode with him in his BRZ and stole his lines - knocked my time down a full second.

For this final track day of the year, I planned on running in the intermediate group, and ask some friends in advance to ride with me and help me improve. This would allow the GF to run in novice with a guaranteed instructor in each session.

Regarding the data logger, I didn't pay any attention at all to it while driving - my instructor was. After the session, I would browse through the video, check lap times, and review the areas my instructor pointed out things to repeat or improve on in the next session. I thought it was an incredibly helpful tool and I didn't let it distract me.

codrus

When and where is your track day, and what temperature do you expect it to be?

I used to have a radiator similar to that Koyo (an old FM radiator). It would work OK at Laguna with average temps in the high 60s, but I never got the car to run acceptably with it at Thunderhill, where average temps were at least 80.

IMHO, you're better off building your cooling system around the best radiator you can get your hands on. Making ducting is kind of a PITA, and anything you make for the Koyo isn't going to fit a TSE/etc very well. My experience is that most hood ducts look like utter crap (and those that don't usually required a lot of money for bodywork/etc) so personally I regard that as the step of last resort for getting the cooling system to work right.

--Ian

MechE

The event I was hoping to make it to (might not given the short time frame) is on September 21st at Oregon Raceway Park in Grassy Valley, OR. Current weather forecast is a sunny with a high of 80 and a low of 57 degrees F. The following event I might attend is on October 3rd and the forecast is 79H/49L.

If I have to put a radiator in before I can go, I'm not going to make it this year. My list seems impossible enough given my limited free time. Luckily I have a spare hood I don't care about and I can install some piece of plastic that will cover up the hole. I don't think they look particularly great either, but I'm all about function over form at this very moment.

A radiator swap this winter may be in order. I am trying to get my hands on a decent NA CAD model so I can play with CFD analysis and get a feel for all the different aero mods everyone has been doing on here and attempt to simulate all the parts working together. The ME in me can't let me just place a hood vent and put an air-dam up front and call it good - everything needs a purpose and to be optimized as a whole.

aidandj

iTrader: (5)

https://www.miataturbo.net/miata-par...3/#post1257792
<br />There is a 3d model of the NA floating around. I'll try and find it again today.

curly

iTrader: (25)

I have no time to read everyone's post besides your first one, but I have a few things to add.

First off, never start on slicks. Secondly, give Adrenaline Racing a call for some Cobalt pads, they're not as picky as Carbotechs for bedding. 3rdly, if you do end up with Carbotechs, you'll want to swap rotors and pads for the street. Because of that, just get the cheapest rotor blanks you can find at any auto parts store, seriously. The only thing the Centrics are good for is the black paint, rust looks bad on the street, but who cares on the track.

MechE

Sweet. I almost want to say sign me up now to fill that last spot, but I'm not sure if I want to use a phone again or buy an all-in-one unit like the AIM...? Is there a device out there that takes analog inputs and relays it to Harrys Lap timer or TrackAddict or similar to capture engine data?

I've found 4 nearly identical CAD files on various forums and they all are a low resolution (can't think of a better word) non-vectored shell models. I'm hoping someone has a clean Solid out there that I can carve away from. I don't care to rebuild all those surfaces... :/

MechE

I'll look into the Cobalt pads.

From what I've heard about Carbotechs, you can use their 1521 street pad (and perhaps even the AX6 autocross pad) on the same rotor as the XP line. Just install the XP's before driving out to the track day and be sure to bed them on the way, and you're set. Can anyone confirm this?

Thanks!

aidandj

iTrader: (5)

Not sure with the hydra. If you can get CAN out then any BT OBDII reader can do it.