Who is not running helper spings
02-10-2016, 08:48 PM
#61
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Location: Richmond Hill, GA
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You must be running some seriously shitty suspension. Either that or you don't run real men springrates, you ride sky high, or you've fucked **** up with the rod ends. An exocet don't weigh anything, makes no sense that you have no droop travel at all. If you drive into a pothole more than a half inch deep you are flying, same thing off big enough bumps. The tire could be put into the road with the force of a helper spring, instead you are content on relying on gravity alone.
Whatever floats your boat. Can I drive over and buy your helper springs?
Whatever floats your boat. Can I drive over and buy your helper springs?
You can have them. As I said, the travel is completely covered by the 7" spring.
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02-10-2016, 08:52 PM
#62
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Incidentally, once the spacers are in and correct ride height is set, the chassis is not "low". To put the piston in the same part of the stroke as it would be in a Miata, the ground clearance under the frame is 8-10". This is not correctable but just how the thing is fundamentally laid out.
I don't think the factory swaybar placement is right, either, but I fixed that with a BMW piece.
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02-12-2016, 10:23 PM
#63
Major Leage Duning - Spring Rate Calculator
When running a 1000#main spring and a 150# tender the combo spring rate is 130# until the tender blocks solid and then the 1000# spring kicks in. So once the suspension is unloaded and the tender is extended until it fully compresses, the springrate is 130#. So in effect, your springrate varies from 130# until it compresses and the main 1000# spring rate kicks in and with a compressed bumpstop tops out at maybe 1500#.
A 7 inch 550# spring would have a variable rate from 550# to approximately 1500# with a compressed bump stop.
Which combo is better? That probably depends on the car setup and tires used.
When running a 1000#main spring and a 150# tender the combo spring rate is 130# until the tender blocks solid and then the 1000# spring kicks in. So once the suspension is unloaded and the tender is extended until it fully compresses, the springrate is 130#. So in effect, your springrate varies from 130# until it compresses and the main 1000# spring rate kicks in and with a compressed bumpstop tops out at maybe 1500#.
A 7 inch 550# spring would have a variable rate from 550# to approximately 1500# with a compressed bump stop.
Which combo is better? That probably depends on the car setup and tires used.
Last edited by wannafbody; 02-13-2016 at 12:41 AM.
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02-13-2016, 10:54 AM
#64
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Major Leage Duning - Spring Rate Calculator
When running a 1000#main spring and a 150# tender the combo spring rate is 130# until the tender blocks solid and then the 1000# spring kicks in. So once the suspension is unloaded and the tender is extended until it fully compresses, the springrate is 130#. So in effect, your springrate varies from 130# until it compresses and the main 1000# spring rate kicks in and with a compressed bumpstop tops out at maybe 1500#.
A 7 inch 550# spring would have a variable rate from 550# to approximately 1500# with a compressed bump stop.
Which combo is better? That probably depends on the car setup and tires used.
When running a 1000#main spring and a 150# tender the combo spring rate is 130# until the tender blocks solid and then the 1000# spring kicks in. So once the suspension is unloaded and the tender is extended until it fully compresses, the springrate is 130#. So in effect, your springrate varies from 130# until it compresses and the main 1000# spring rate kicks in and with a compressed bumpstop tops out at maybe 1500#.
A 7 inch 550# spring would have a variable rate from 550# to approximately 1500# with a compressed bump stop.
Which combo is better? That probably depends on the car setup and tires used.
Let's play a game where you only comment when you have extensive, first hand knowledge of the subject.
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02-13-2016, 11:28 AM
#65
Because some people think they are running a 1000# spring rate all the time when they are in effect running a 130-1500# variable rate spring combo.
Why are you being rude to me? Isn't this a discussion forum? Aren't we to discuss stuff?
Other than getting a potentially lower ride height, I don't see any advantage of the high rate spring/tender combo unless the front swaybar allows enough droop to unload a spring.
Why are you being rude to me? Isn't this a discussion forum? Aren't we to discuss stuff?
Other than getting a potentially lower ride height, I don't see any advantage of the high rate spring/tender combo unless the front swaybar allows enough droop to unload a spring.
Last edited by wannafbody; 02-13-2016 at 01:04 PM.
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02-13-2016, 04:19 PM
#66
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If the front spring is 6 inches you should run a tender spring, on a Miata. If you are using a 7 inch front spring depending on ride height, you might not need the tender spring. With a Racing Beat front bar, I'm not sure that you'll have enough droop to warrant a tender with a 7 inch spring unless you get both front wheels off the ground.
Home - PAC Racing Springs have very good prices on tender springs, listed as flat wire springs.
Home - PAC Racing Springs have very good prices on tender springs, listed as flat wire springs.
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02-13-2016, 04:46 PM
#67
Explain it to me.
It looks to me that the rear swaybar limits droop to a point that the tenders don't come into play.
Even the video on page 1 of this thread isn't very convincing of the need for tender springs in the front, they barely come into play. BTW, those front tie rod end angles look like they'd cause bumpsteer.
IIRC, the Targa Miata didn't run tender springs.
It looks to me that the rear swaybar limits droop to a point that the tenders don't come into play.
Even the video on page 1 of this thread isn't very convincing of the need for tender springs in the front, they barely come into play. BTW, those front tie rod end angles look like they'd cause bumpsteer.
IIRC, the Targa Miata didn't run tender springs.
Last edited by wannafbody; 02-13-2016 at 04:59 PM.
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02-13-2016, 04:55 PM
#68
Explain it to me.
xida clubsport helper spring at 4.125" pinch weld height 1999 miata 2/2 - YouTube
It looks to me that the rear swaybar limits droop to a point that the tenders don't come into play.
Even the video on page 1 of this thread isn't very convincing of the need for tender springs in the front, they barely come into play. BTW, those front tie rod end angles don't look like they'd cause bumpsteer.
xida clubsport helper spring at 4.125" pinch weld height 1999 miata 2/2 - YouTube
It looks to me that the rear swaybar limits droop to a point that the tenders don't come into play.
Even the video on page 1 of this thread isn't very convincing of the need for tender springs in the front, they barely come into play. BTW, those front tie rod end angles don't look like they'd cause bumpsteer.
Oh, you're just going to disregard video evidence of the helpers helping, with a ******* massive front bar. Right then.
Are they 2.5" helpers, by chance?
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02-13-2016, 05:21 PM
#71
Now, if there is just a thousand pound spring in each corner, do you know how much it will compress under the load of a two thousand pound car? Not a ******* lot.
Do you know where all droop travel in a suspension comes from? It comes from the collapsed spring rate of a car under only the force of gravity. If you have no more compressed spring to push into droop, you have no droop. If you hit a big enough bump with no droop you are out of control till gravity returns you to the road.
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02-13-2016, 07:51 PM
#73
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if you have say a 700# 6" long spring and you adjust the perch to get your ride height at a preferred value you end up with say 1.5" of gap between the spring and the perch when its unloaded. If you replace that spring with an 700# 8" long spring then re-adjust the perch to get the same ride height. you will have the same 1.5" gap between the perch and the spring when its unloaded. its just that your adjustable collar will be set 2" lower on the shock body to achieve the same ride height.
The only way you are going to change that is by going to a lower spring rate or having a section of the spring operate at a lower spring rate such as a helper spring.
The only way you are going to change that is by going to a lower spring rate or having a section of the spring operate at a lower spring rate such as a helper spring.
Earlysport
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02-13-2016, 08:42 PM
#75
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Exactly what I was saying on #27, Bob just explained it better. I run a low ride height, 4" frt, 43/8" rear. I have 850# frts and 450# rrs and my travel before the springs go loose is 1.5" UP frt and 1.75" in the rr. Around a smooth corner I doubt my iside lifts anywhere near that in the front, the rear may get close to that under turn in while braking, but I doubt that it also goes loose. If I ran on rough tracks with some rough bumps I would add helpers, but since I don't I don't think they are needed. All I'm trying to say even with 850# spring and 2220# of weight there is a fair amount of compression.
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02-13-2016, 10:31 PM
#76
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LCA movement
That shows helpers helping. It also shows what appears to be a LOT of lateral (in-out) movement of the lower arm, based on the position of the lower bolt on the endlink relative to the seam. Is this for real, or an artefact of something else, camera movement perhaps?
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02-13-2016, 10:39 PM
#77
Control arms move on an arc, you know? If you compare something on the arm to a vertical body seam I would expect it to get closer to said seam on compression travel.
I think it might be an illusion between that, the flex of the endlink, and the sidewall rolling so hard. If you compare the inside of the arm, back by the rear alignment bolt, it doesn't seem to move as much.
I think it might be an illusion between that, the flex of the endlink, and the sidewall rolling so hard. If you compare the inside of the arm, back by the rear alignment bolt, it doesn't seem to move as much.
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02-14-2016, 07:10 AM
#78
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Thanks, I understand the arc thing, seemed to be more than I expected though.
I would not expect any/much movement at the rear of the arm, the front bushing would be taking most of the cornering forces, and if there is lateral movement (beyond movement along the arc) that is where I would expect it to be. I think you are right though, unless there are some really shot bushes in there, it is movement along the arc.
I would not expect any/much movement at the rear of the arm, the front bushing would be taking most of the cornering forces, and if there is lateral movement (beyond movement along the arc) that is where I would expect it to be. I think you are right though, unless there are some really shot bushes in there, it is movement along the arc.
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02-14-2016, 09:57 PM
#80
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Exactly what I was saying on #27, Bob just explained it better. I run a low ride height, 4" frt, 43/8" rear. I have 850# frts and 450# rrs and my travel before the springs go loose is 1.5" UP frt and 1.75" in the rr. Around a smooth corner I doubt my iside lifts anywhere near that in the front, the rear may get close to that under turn in while braking, but I doubt that it also goes loose. If I ran on rough tracks with some rough bumps I would add helpers, but since I don't I don't think they are needed. All I'm trying to say even with 850# spring and 2220# of weight there is a fair amount of compression.
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