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Old 06-10-2016, 02:10 PM   #781
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Originally Posted by JoeTheZoe View Post
Have you measured your ride height, wheel center to fender?
Hub to fender: 12"F, 12.5"R
Pinch: 4 3/8"F, 4 7/8"R

Total weight was 2230 before the rollbar, suspension and wheels. Rollbar adds ~45lbs, suspension probably drops a few, wheel/tire package drops a few more. So maybe 2250ish.

Edit: Luckily, my Longacre Toe Plates were in the trunk still from resetting front toe after lowering it more last night. So I ran out there on lunch and took a tape to it. LOL.

Last edited by doward; 06-10-2016 at 02:36 PM.
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Old 06-10-2016, 05:10 PM   #782
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Originally Posted by doward View Post
Hub to fender: 12"F, 12.5"R
Pinch: 4 3/8"F, 4 7/8"R

Total weight was 2230 before the rollbar, suspension and wheels. Rollbar adds ~45lbs, suspension probably drops a few, wheel/tire package drops a few more. So maybe 2250ish.
Data. Sweet, sweet data. Thanks.
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Old 06-15-2016, 04:34 PM   #783
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Read and re read this thread, and I keep getting confused. My confusion is the shocks, I'm sure its been said but I'm not seeing the answer. I see the NB Hard S, Sports, B6, B8, HDs all tossed around and I'm sure some are one in the same. If I was choosing between NEW B6's from Tire Rack lets say, or used OEM billies off a 2002, are these two comparable, or is there is noticeable difference between them? Which would you choose? I see the chart, but I think I'm confusing which shock is which. Proposed list:

-All star or Advanced autosport 4" sleeves
- energy suspension isolators
- ISC rear hats (are these required with this set up?)
- Summit 550 (or 450) fronts and 350 rears in 7"
- I have honda bump stops I would cut to size for this.

My car is a 2003 NB, plan is daily driver, maybe 4 track days a year and some autocross mixed in. As soon as I figure out suspension Ill be putting RS3s on 15x9 Advanti wheels. Ill need to change out the sway bar I'm sure for this set up.
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Old 06-15-2016, 09:23 PM   #784
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Shock confusion...
The hard s and MSM shocks are those that came on various Miatas and are being acquired used. The other options are those which bilstein currently produces for the Miata. B8=bilstein sport (for the NB) B6=bilstein hd. There are two different models of the HD/B6 produced, one for the NA and one for the NB. *Edit: See junkwhale's post below for more accurate information regarding shock length and valving differences. The top hat connection is slightly different on the NA. The shocks are interchangeable between NA and NB cars but mounting NA shocks on NB top hats requires unique hardware.

Generally, the NA HD are desirable for their short body length (fcm shocks start life as NA HDs) and the MSM for their valving (although they have the longest bodies). It's pretty sacrilegious to reference that other site around here, but concealer does a really good job summarizing all of the differences in the Cr.net "budget bilstein ballers" thread.

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Proposed list...
Fwiw I went with NA HDs in my NB. Although they are yet to be installed because I never have time to work on my car! Whether you need the isc hats is a function of how low you want to go, your shock body length, spring length/rate and circlip/sleeve bottom location.

Last edited by slowcarfast; 06-15-2016 at 11:36 PM.
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Old 06-15-2016, 10:12 PM   #785
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If thats true about about the NA HD now having the NB HD valving I'm going to be a little miffed.
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Old 06-15-2016, 11:19 PM   #786
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If thats true about about the NA HD now having the NB HD valving I'm going to be a little miffed.
I thought I read that, but it may have been that the nb sport and nb hd valving was the same, but the na hd differs.
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Old 06-15-2016, 11:22 PM   #787
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I know the sport and HD are literally the same shock with a droop limiter in the sport shocks. But I havent heard the NA-NB thing being the same. I do know that NB HDs have WAY more gas pressure than old oem showas.
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Old 06-15-2016, 11:25 PM   #788
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Originally Posted by slowcarfast View Post
The hard s and MSM shocks are those that came on various Miatas and are being acquired used. The other options are those which bilstein currently produces for the Miata. B8=bilstein sport (for the NB) B6=bilstein hd. There are two different models of the HD/B6 produced, one for the NA and one for the NB. Supposedly valving is the same on all the new options, the difference is varying shock body length. Additionally, the top hat connection is slightly different on the NA. The shocks are interchangeable between NA and NB cars but mounting NA shocks on NB top hats requires unique hardware. The hard s and MSM shocks also vary in shock body length and valving as compared to each other and the aforementioned offerings.

Generally, the NA HD are desirable for their short body length (fcm shocks start life as NA HDs) and the MSM for their valving (although they have the longest bodies). It's pretty sacrilegious to reference that other site around here, but concealer does a really good job summarizing all of the differences in the Cr.net "budget bilstein ballers" thread.

Fwiw I went with NA HDs in my NB. Although they are yet to be installed because I never have time to work on my car! Whether you need the isc hats is a function of how low you want to go, your shock body length, spring length/rate and circlip/sleeve bottom location.
Shock body lengths are exactly the same for NB 'Hard-s' shocks, MSM (Silver) shocks, Bilstein HD (B6), Bilstein Sport (B8). The piston lengths are the same for all except the aftermarket Bilstein Sport (B8) which has a shortened piston by 1" - don't buy this one. The valving is relatively similar for all, the MSM has more low speed damping, followed by the Bilstein HD/Sport, with the softest damping in the Hard-S bilsteins:


All the NA bilsteins (R package and Bilstein HD) have slightly shorter bodies than the NB ones. New NA Bilstein HDs do NOT have the same valving as any of the NB shocks. These are the standard shocks for spec miata and therefore all have the same valving which is quite different to any of the NB bilsteins. The NA Bilstein HD and R Package bilsteins look like this:
Attached Thumbnails
The Better Bilstein Ebay Coilover Thread-oe_nb_rear_showa_hards_msm_aftermarket_sport_and_hd.gif   The Better Bilstein Ebay Coilover Thread-dyno5.jpg  
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Old 06-16-2016, 08:10 AM   #789
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[QUOTE=Junkwhale;1339044]Shock body lengths are exactly the same for NB 'Hard-s' shocks, MSM (Silver) shocks, Bilstein HD (B6), Bilstein Sport (B8). The piston lengths are the same for all except the aftermarket Bilstein Sport (B8) which has a shortened piston by 1" - don't buy this one. The valving is relatively similar for all, the MSM has more low speed damping, followed by the Bilstein HD/Sport, with the softest damping in the Hard-S bilsteins:


So the shock hierarchy for NB's would be MSM, aftermarket B6 HDs, then OEM Hard S, then the 1" less compression B8 Sports (but don't buy these at all), correct? (not looking at the NA billies with extra hardware). So if the toss up was used OEM or new B6's, there is a difference in how the shock performs, but most people are going for the discount so they have the cheaper set up. I think I'm on the right page. Thanks.
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Old 06-16-2016, 08:25 AM   #790
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Originally Posted by Swanpuppy View Post
So the shock hierarchy for NB's would be MSM, aftermarket B6 HDs, then OEM Hard S, then the 1" less compression B8 Sports (but don't buy these at all), correct? (not looking at the NA billies with extra hardware). So if the toss up was used OEM or new B6's, there is a difference in how the shock performs, but most people are going for the discount so they have the cheaper set up. I think I'm on the right page. Thanks.
Sounds like you've got it. The "extra hardware" is really just these nuts (they can be had much cheaper elsewhere). I believe some have also had success cutting the top hat bushings in half making it possible to get a standard nut on. If you don't want to mess with it, that's fine. I'm not trying to push the HD NAs as better than the other options, they all have advantages and disadvantages (except the B8 sports, as mentioned, which should be avoided), just know that they can be utilized pretty easily.
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Old 06-16-2016, 09:00 AM   #791
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Originally Posted by slowcarfast View Post
Sounds like you've got it. The "extra hardware" is really just these nuts (they can be had much cheaper elsewhere). I believe some have also had success cutting the top hat bushings in half making it possible to get a standard nut on. If you don't want to mess with it, that's fine. I'm not trying to push the HD NAs as better than the other options, they all have advantages and disadvantages (except the B8 sports, as mentioned, which should be avoided), just know that they can be utilized pretty easily.
Why exactly would you avoid the aftermarket b8 sports? That's what I went with since they were designed for lowered cars and they have held up fine. In fact that, I just sent them in for a revalve for 700/400 springs.
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Old 06-16-2016, 09:02 AM   #792
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Why exactly would you avoid the aftermarket b8 sports? That's what I went with since they were designed for lowered cars and they have held up fine. In fact that, I just sent them in for a revalve for 700/400 springs.
Post 788: Piston is 1" shorter. Thats his reasoning.
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Old 06-16-2016, 09:22 AM   #793
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Why exactly would you avoid the aftermarket b8 sports? That's what I went with since they were designed for lowered cars and they have held up fine. In fact that, I just sent them in for a revalve for 700/400 springs.
The valving is the same, but the *Edit: piston rod is shorter, which means you lose some suspension travel. I think there are better solutions to address the problem that bilstein is attempting to with this shock, but it's not a big deal.

Last edited by slowcarfast; 06-17-2016 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 06-16-2016, 01:48 PM   #794
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Has anyone found an "ideal" set up? Ive seen some say they are 90% there, some say its an improvement but certain bumps are still crappy. On the "Budget Ballers" thread on CR.net there are some more comments and it sounds like this set up is an improvement but only marginally so? Can anyone chime in with positive or negative reviews?

Perhaps I'm mistaken that there should be a massive improvement. Are these are intended to be a stock replacement that has a minuscule more performance potential only, or is the difference larger? My car has stock suspension at this point, I'm trying to judge what kind of changes I would see going this route to determine if its worth the investment now, or wait till my shocks blow then replace. Perhaps people only comment with problems, but not the 100% satisfied reviews.
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Old 06-16-2016, 02:48 PM   #795
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Originally Posted by Swanpuppy View Post
Has anyone found an "ideal" set up? Ive seen some say they are 90% there, some say its an improvement but certain bumps are still crappy. On the "Budget Ballers" thread on CR.net there are some more comments and it sounds like this set up is an improvement but only marginally so? Can anyone chime in with positive or negative reviews?

Perhaps I'm mistaken that there should be a massive improvement. Are these are intended to be a stock replacement that has a minuscule more performance potential only, or is the difference larger? My car has stock suspension at this point, I'm trying to judge what kind of changes I would see going this route to determine if its worth the investment now, or wait till my shocks blow then replace. Perhaps people only comment with problems, but not the 100% satisfied reviews.
Maybe you should say what your goals are by changing your shocks? You mention your car has "stock suspension" but your sig says "koni adjustables".

I pretty much have the setup from this thread; MSM Bilsteins + 7" 550/400 springs + Allstar sleeves + Two Six NB Mounts and along with the RB front sway bar like the setup a lot. Well worth what I have into them. 100% satisfied.

Pretty sure doward is running the same thing with the exception of the top mounts maybe.
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Old 06-16-2016, 02:55 PM   #796
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Maybe you should say what your goals are by changing your shocks? You mention your car has "stock suspension" but your sig says "koni adjustables".

I pretty much have the setup from this thread; MSM Bilsteins + 7" 550/400 springs + Allstar sleeves + Two Six NB Mounts and along with the RB front sway bar like the setup a lot. Well worth what I have into them. 100% satisfied.

Pretty sure doward is running the same thing with the exception of the top mounts maybe.

Sorry, haven't updated my sig, I sold that car. New car is 2003, 100% stock, will be mainly a DD with maybe 4 track days a year. I have 15x9 wheels with RS3's I'm hoping to put on once I get suspension sorted. My plan was this billie set up, with that tire set up, and change out the front sway to a bigger bar. The MSM Bilsteins seem to be the way to go, I have never seen a set for sale locally. Maybe ill need to keep my eyes more open, but I will most likely end up with OEM take offs or order new B6's.

Your set up is what I have written down as my course of action, glad to hear its good for you. Its solid and comfy on the street but handles corners effectively?
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Old 06-16-2016, 03:17 PM   #797
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Sorry, haven't updated my sig, I sold that car. New car is 2003, 100% stock, will be mainly a DD with maybe 4 track days a year. I have 15x9 wheels with RS3's I'm hoping to put on once I get suspension sorted. My plan was this billie set up, with that tire set up, and change out the front sway to a bigger bar. The MSM Bilsteins seem to be the way to go, I have never seen a set for sale locally. Maybe ill need to keep my eyes more open, but I will most likely end up with OEM take offs or order new B6's.

Your set up is what I have written down as my course of action, glad to hear its good for you. Its solid and comfy on the street but handles corners effectively?
It seems that very used MSM shocks go for around $250-275ish and if I were doing a set for my '91 I'd probably buy new B6 shocks and go from there. Others my differ but I doubt i'd feel the difference in valving between a new B6 shock and a well used MSM shock. If you want to rebuild + revalve add another $100 +/- to each MSM shock.

It gets pretty pricey.
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Old 06-16-2016, 03:22 PM   #798
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Has anyone found an "ideal" set up? Ive seen some say they are 90% there, some say its an improvement but certain bumps are still crappy. On the "Budget Ballers" thread on CR.net there are some more comments and it sounds like this set up is an improvement but only marginally so? Can anyone chime in with positive or negative reviews?
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Pretty sure doward is running the same thing with the exception of the top mounts maybe.
I've posted more on CR than here, but yea, I have a very similar setup.
7" 550/400
MSM shocks
NB mounts

When cost is factored in, I don't believe a better setup is possible, but I am not exactly "impressed" by them, mostly because I'm spoiled by my Xidas.
I think a softer 450/300 setup OR extended tophats would fix my ride quality complaints.

"Ideal" setup?
- 6" main + helpers
- <500lb front spring
- extended top hats


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Old 06-16-2016, 11:18 PM   #799
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The valving is the same, but the piston is shorter, which means you lose some suspension travel. I think there are better solutions to address the problem that bilstein is attempting to with this shock, but it's not a big deal.
Are you sure the piston itself is shorter and not just the rod? I have never heard the piston itself is any different, but that the rod is.
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Old 06-16-2016, 11:58 PM   #800
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Oops, I see that was my fault (or started in my post anyway). Yes it's the rod that's shorter.

A piston that is 1" shorter would be...of negative height.
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