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Old 04-27-2009, 06:04 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
I am running Toyota COPs, dwell set at 2.5 ms. I think Stein is running factory coil packs.
Correct. ZX running COPS would likely rule out my coil/wires issue I would think.

I'm running 4.5ms dwell.
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Old 04-27-2009, 10:01 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
Are you guys using the correct wari software version with the correct flash? They come in pairs, and if you don't use same with same it can cause instability. To my knowledge you guys are the only 2 with the problem thats this severe. It has to be something that has just gone overlooked, but I swept the software settings looking for anything and couldn't find a single mis-step.
Turns out you can use any software that is the same or newer than the firmware you're running.

WARI update
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Old 04-27-2009, 10:09 PM   #83
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Yeah I linked to that thread earlier

I have an interesting data log to post, complete with the rough running then die problem. Give me some time to look at it and I'll post up soon.
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:09 PM   #84
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OK here are my notes for this evening's log session. I measured voltages in three places: On the Adaptronic (log), on the stereo (has a voltage display), and on a DMM connected to the battery terminals. They all agreed within 0.2V or so.

Attached is the csv file corresponding to my notes below. I stripped out the quoted on the first line so you can open it in Megalogviewer. However it will only show data up to the first time the car dies. The whole log is viewable in Excel.

Here are my chronological notes with time denoted in seconds by the time stamp on the log.
- Drove home with old map.
- Came home, pulled into garage, let car idle, no log, but engine died while I was inside, maybe 3-4 minutes after I stopped. I heard it die.
- Loaded the updated correction map file (per Y8S suggested settings). Started logging. Restarted and idled engine for a looooooong time. Revved engine at 509 seconds to help heat up motor. Revved Again at 644 seconds. Revved and held engine at 779 seconds. Partially bocked radiator to get coolant temps up. Coolant temp got up to 220F on dash gauge. Noticed voltage drop with temperature, but no engine death.
- Gave up and decided to take the car for a drive, starting at 1053 seconds.
- Drive was normal until 1346 seconds, when AFR shot up above 18 on the gauge (erratic on the log). No LC-1 error code, steady light. Kept driving, car cleared up at around 1375 seconds then ran OK. Continued driving until 1741 seconds.
- Came back home, parked, a/c on, let car idle with lights, a/c, stereo, all on. Car idled OK until 2079 seconds then finally starting running rough, very suddenly, then died.
- Restarted car at 2088 secs, continued to run rough, stutter, died again (2097 secs). Restarted (2102 secs), dies, restart, die... Finally at 2130 secs it ran OK again and idled a long time, no problem.
- Voltage stayed low. Right at the end of the log a/c, lights, and stereo turned off. Voltage immediately climbed to 14+ volts. Turned a/c and lights back on, voltage dropped.
- Eventually I shut down the car at 2870 secs. It idled no problem from 2130 seconds until I shut it off.

NOTES:
1. When the car started running rough during the drive (1346 secs), the voltage was fine at 14+ volts
2. When the car started running rough while parked after the drive (2079 secs) the voltage was lower at 12.1V-12.3V but relatively steady.
3. Voltage drops one log step after the RPM drops at the 2079 secs. incident in #2 above.
Attached Files
File Type: zip volt-test-1.zip (195.3 KB, 63 views)

Last edited by ZX-Tex; 04-27-2009 at 11:28 PM.
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:15 PM   #85
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Everyone with this issue using the LC1? If so where are you guys getting power and ground.
I use the AEM so i'm not looking for ideas just curious if this could be some weird LC1 issue for no reason other than throwing out other ideas even though we seem to think this is temp/electric load related.
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:24 PM   #86
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Funny you mention that. Once before when I had the rough running condition I looked down and saw the LC-1 flashing the dreaded E8 code. I thought that maybe it was causing the Adaptronic to do something weird, like something with closed-loop feedback. But then I have seen it happen when the LC-1 was still fine, including on the above log. Plus I have closed-loop feedback turned off right now as far as I know.

I also had another rough running incident today at lunch without the LC-1 attached at all. The LC-1 serial connector had come loose from the Adaptronic (serial comm only, no voltage in) and there was no data in the AFR cells for the entire log.

So I am thinking it is not the LC-1, but this **** is so wacky at this point I am trying not to dismiss anything.
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:24 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjernigan View Post
Everyone with this issue using the LC1? If so where are you guys getting power and ground.
I use the AEM so i'm not looking for ideas just curious if this could be some weird LC1 issue for no reason other than throwing out other ideas even though we seem to think this is temp/electric load related.
I'm using AEM UEGO.

I think I know what the problem is. Earlier today I said heat soak. That made me think.

Driving home today it ran great. AFR's at idle were in the 12.3-12.5 range. Stopped at the store and it wouldn't idle after starting. Kept dieing. AFR's were high. Finally kept it going and got on the road. Things were fine after that. Got home and decided to try something. Shut if off and started it 2-3 minutes later. Idled like crap.

Drove it to a birthday party an hour later. Started like crap. Car was warm. Drove for 5-6 miles and stopped in town. Good idle. Hmmm. Drove a mile and shut it down on the side of the road. Started and ran like crap. Drove a mile and the next stop idled fine.

I think it is heat soak on the IAT. AFR's are always lean. It explains why I always have trouble keeping an idle. I will set it, do some tuning, pull over and do some tweaking. I never put it together that the AFR's were creeping while sitting still. That's why when I add fuel to get a decent AFR at idle (while hot) I always showed rich the next day.

So, once I get the IAT adjustment table updated that should hopefully fix it. Oh, and when it is going well, I'm not getting the lean spike to 17.9 starting out from a stop. It's normal. I think that is why I could never diagnose it. I was always trying to tune while pulled over when hot and it soaked everything. Matt suggested this earlier and I didn't realize it was likely the culprit.

I'm going to try to get this done now and will report.
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:45 PM   #88
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Interesting...

So based on that I went back and looked at my logs. When the car dies the first time, after driving it, the MAT is at 22C. Before that it had been as low as 17C and as high as 30C (sitting in the garage with the radiator partially blocked). It was at 19C when it acted up while I was driving it.

There was a small amount of trim showing in the log, about 3%, which corresponds to the trim amount set in the 'air temp correction' at that AIT temp.

My AIT sensor is mounted on the FMIC in front of the radiator and the condenser so it is less prone to heat soak. That is, unless I do a lot of back-to-back boosting
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Old 04-27-2009, 11:55 PM   #89
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for what it's worth, i've run my car on the unit a grand total of like 3 minutes. maybe less.

I managed to squeeze out a little bit of datalog in that time. the ONE successful day I got it to run, the logs show voltage around normal (low to mid 14s). incidentally, once I got the AFR near normal (14:1), it idled like butter around 850 or so.

I have a few logs of cranking. the pre-crank voltage is in the low 11s. It didnt want to start when the voltage was that low. I can't start it today. I was out there every day for the last week and a half with a charger on the batter while playing around just in case. the charger reads high 12s. The adaptronic reads low 11s.

I'm going to triple check my harness this week and find out how to get an honest to god hot 12V running to the unit (via relay or something). It seems the unit has a very small tolerance for undervoltage situations.

it doesn't help either that when I drop below 11.4V, the TechEdge WBO2 unit freaks out and gives me data that goes from 19:1 to 9:1 every time there's a data sample. It splits ECU power with the adaptronic and stock ECU--something that is going to have to change.

check out my crazy log:
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Sudden rough running [resolved]-adap_volts.png  
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Old 04-28-2009, 12:03 AM   #90
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Wow your battery voltage is all over the place.

So, since you built your own harness, do you have the stock ECU or the Adaptronic controlling alternator voltage?
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Old 04-28-2009, 12:09 AM   #91
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stock ECU. but I think that two ECUs and a wideband unit sharing the circuit to the stock ECU is a bit much.

noticed your wideband does the same funk when voltage is low. you're using the serial input?

you're right though, there's nothing that suggests what is causing the issue. just all of a sudden your timing/rpm spike down and all hell breaks loose.

it's gotta be some unlogged input to the ECU that triggers it... whether it's a sensor or just noise.
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Old 04-28-2009, 12:17 AM   #92
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Just got back from a run with Matt's settings and the first time I have run the car in closed loop. Seemed to run pretty well and didn't die. One thing that scared me is it really bogged on a boosted run. Then I forgot that in closed loop timing it is defaulted to retard 1* when knock is 1. It was pulling timing to 30* on a boosted run.Turned it up to 50 and all was well again. I still need to set a base knock but the knock sensor/timing puller will be kind of useless with my 104 peaks at 4K RPM.

Let me review the log and see if I see anything new.
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Old 04-28-2009, 12:41 AM   #93
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Didn't notice anything out of the ordinary. Over the run, min voltage was 13.9, max 14.9 per limit recording of MegaLog Viewer. I'll drive it to work and log it tomorrow and see if anything out of the ordinary pops up.
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Old 04-28-2009, 01:16 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
]
noticed your wideband does the same funk when voltage is low. you're using the serial input?
Yep. I like that since it removes one of the sources of error.

Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
]
you're right though, there's nothing that suggests what is causing the issue. just all of a sudden your timing/rpm spike down and all hell breaks loose.
.
Thanks for taking a look. I cannot find anything certain to correlate it with at this point either. It happens when voltage is high or low. It happens when the coolant is warm, but not always when it is warm. It happens when the LC-1 is working normally or throwing an error code, or even when the LC-1 is not connected. Turning off the ECU helps sometimes, others not. It happens when parked, or when cruising. Heat soak seems to bring it on, but not always.

I am at a loss at this point. I thought you were on to something with the low voltage condition until this evening's logging session.

Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
]
it's gotta be some unlogged input to the ECU that triggers it... whether it's a sensor or just noise.
Either that or some other strange anomaly that is not logged. Adaptronic is on the case; I am hoping that they come back with something that will fix the problem. This is an opportunity for them to shine by providing some more good customer support.
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Old 04-28-2009, 09:18 AM   #95
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Here is the email from Rob. More to come...

Quote:
Hi Travis,

I had a look at the log files and ecu settings that you sent me.

One thing I noticed in the log files is that the trim is always zero for some reason, although the trim is zero before the problem occurs so this doesn't really explain it.
As John said, the AFR is not giving a reading in one of the logs, and this should be sorted out. Although, again, there is no AFR reading in the log before the problem occurs so this doesn't really explain it either.
When thr AFR is working in the other logs, it also appears to be giving a wild range of values, from very rich to very lean, which shouldn't really happen to that extent.

A few things that would be worth changing in his ecu settings (to simplify things, if not for any other reason):
- His target AFR table has unusual values in it. Typically, we set a target of 14.7 at low load and ramp it down to about 12.5-13.0 at high load. It could even be that this is why he is getting rough running.
- The soft and hard hysteresis values on the power cut page are usually left at zero.
- There are no post crank enrichments set (the durations are normal, but the enrichment values are currently zero). Typically the short post crank enrichment would be about 25% and the long post crank would be about 10%.

Get John to change these things, and perhaps consider the lack of AFR reading or fuel trim in the log.

Cheers

Rob Knox
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Old 04-28-2009, 09:32 AM   #96
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UPDATE:

Drove 22 miles to work today. Zero problems. Car drives and idles perfectly, other than needing to do some returning. Lean spike on tip in is now gone as well. No idle droop.

To date all running has been done in open loop. Since updating the closed loop settings with Matt's data from his Hydra that he has integrated into his Adaptronic settings and running in closed loop my issues seem to be gone. That said, it was less than 40* out this morning and I had no stop and go traffic so it wasn't able to heat soak at all. Lunch will be a better test with some town traffic and a warm restart, but it is still only supposed to be 50* here for a high today.

Thanks Matt!
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Old 04-28-2009, 10:59 AM   #97
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OK thanks Travis. Comments on Rob's comments:

- The lack of AFR reading was just a loose serial connector. It works fine now. That last log I sent, with all of the notes, has AFR readings.
- That last log I sent shows fuel trim in several places.
- I had the AFRs ramping up to 11:1 to play it safe on the initial tune. I may bump those up to 12:1, but no leaner until I get my electronic det can online again. The lean values at the bottom are for lean cruising, same thing I did on the Megasquirt. But for the sake of diagnosing this problem I'll bring those up to 14.7.
- I'll change the soft and hard hysteresis values to zero
- I'll add some post-crank enrichment per his suggestion.

If he has not looked at that last log I sent with the notes, maybe he will come back with some more tomorrow.

I drove in this morning with no problems, although it is a cooler morning, about 70F.
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Old 04-28-2009, 02:01 PM   #98
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OK update. I applied the config changes suggested by Rob and posted by Travis above. I went out at lunch and tested the new settings. It is still doing the same thing. After driving for a bit, and pulling over to idle, the rough idle started again after a couple of minutes. It happened a few times. It also started running rough after sitting at a light, then driving away after it turned green.

I sent a new log and revised ecu file to Travis.

Those of you running Toyota COPs, what dwell are you using?

I also noticed that the MAP sensor may not be calibrated just right. It does not agree closely with the stand-alone boost gauge. I am going to try recalibrating it tonight.

Last edited by ZX-Tex; 04-28-2009 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 04-28-2009, 02:23 PM   #99
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Unfortunately the adaptronic doesn't do a "dwell curve", but I'd keep it around 2200, even though it's a shitty compromise for lower voltages. At least you wont overheat the coils or hit their internal current limit.

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Old 04-28-2009, 02:26 PM   #100
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OK yeah I looked at that graph and was going back and forth between 2100 and 2500 to try both. I am not sure it is a dwell problem but it was worth a try.

So what happens when the COPs get too hot? Do they get weak or misfire, or do they just permanently fail?
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