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Old 07-06-2009, 10:10 AM   #1
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Default Tip In Adjustment

Well, it appears that I have my car whipped pretty much into shape. AFR's are good, idle is good, cold start and hot start are good. The only problem that I still have is lean tip in off of a 0% throttle. Not just off of idle, but any time, even if off the gas at cruise. When I touch the gas I go full lean and then it catches.

The information below was pulled from the Sudden Rough Running thread and was written by Travis. I haven't tried either method yet, as I just found the info again today. In any case, Matt or John, have you solved the lean tip-in issues yet?

I've got a few links here on acceleration tuning. One thing is that if you have the stock injectors the asynch map provided by Y8's will work. If you have any other size of injectors you have to scale the asynch menu to fit your injectors.


1 take on it

Quote:
Here is a run down of some of the transient throttle settings which may help you to choose suitable values:

-Firstly, we usually don't use the MAP-based transient enrichment settings (ie. leave them at zero).
-Typically, the TPS component varies alot between different cars, a suitable value could be as low as 20 or as high as the maximum. Try 50 to start with (this value gets multiplied by the rate-of-change of TPS).
-The duration tends to be in the range from 200 to 600 (the enrichment will ramp down to zero over this duration).
-The 'cutoff (%)' should usually be somewhere between 10 and 20 (this parameter specifies the %TPS above which there will be no transient throttle action by the ECU). The cutoff above the 'set async' button is for transient throttle enrichment, and the one below the 'set async' button is for the asynchronous accelerator pump. They are often set to the same value.
-The gain should be somewhere between 1 and 30, where higher values require faster throttle movement to achieve the full async squirt duration specified in the 'set asynch' table.
-Finally, for the values in the 'set asynch' table, the value at 0 RPM should be zero, and the remaining values should taper down from about 200 at 500RPM to 0 at about 8000RPM. Note that the values in that table are actually x10 (to improve accuracy), so a value of 200 = 20ms of fuel. The values I just suggested are strictly a guide, they may need to be played with a fair bit.

See how you go with that. The most important settings to play with in the transient throttle are the gain, the TPS component, and the 'set asynch' table.

Cheers
Rob

Another take on it from a tuner


Quote:
There is no formula to it, so you just have to trial and error it.

One thing you will need to make sure of, is that the fuel and map is set up and pretty close to perfect.


1) 0 all values
2) Have the motor at idle and crack open the throttle as fast as you can
3) The motor will hesitate then rev
4) Return the motor to idle
5) At 0rpm, 500rpm and 1000rpm add 5 to the "asynchronous pump
6) Continue to do this until the motor becomes more responcive
7) Note at which value the motor begins to stop hesitating
Cool Continue to increase the values at 0-1500rpm by 5 until the motor begins to hesitate again.
9) Note this value and then pick somewhere in the middle of the earlier value and fine tune around it.
10) use the same process for every 500rpm after 1500 by holding the throttle at say 2000rpm and cracking the throttle.


You will find that past about 3500 you will need very little, if any, throttle pump enrich, but you will have to just find out.

The TPS component, map component and duration settings on the Corrections page set the amount of TPS change needed to trigger the enrich, and the MS is how long it enriches for. You will have to ask andy if thats exactly right though, but thats how I have tuned the adaptronics I have installed and they seem beautiful.

Andy replied to the tuner saying:

Quote:
Dave was telling me that he thought it needed a MAP or TPS cutoff, so that beyond a certain MAP or TPS value, the enrichment was disabled.

From your description of the problem Nathan, it sounds to me as though you have correctly eliminated the stumble with the asynchronous accelerator pump, but that there's a rich or lean bit shortly afterwards. The TPS/MAP components are the amount by which the TPS or MAP rate of change is multiplied by to arrive at the enrichment value. This drops off linearly over the period specified in the duration.

Eg, if you say TPS = 10, and you open the throttle quickly, the ECU will provide a certain level of enrichment (say it's 15% for a given rate of opening the throttle). If you open the throttle twice as quickly, it will be 30%. Say your duration is set to 500 ms. This means you'll get 15% at T=0 (when the throttle is opened), then 7.5% at 250 ms after, tapering down to 0% at 500ms.

So that's how it works.


You can also search around in these links to see if you find anything useful there. Some of the quotes were pulled from them, and all of them dealt with the transient tuning.

Adaptronic :: View topic - MX5 transient throttle
Another MX-5 result!
Throttle pump problem on 4AGE 20V
Acceleration Enrichment
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Old 07-06-2009, 11:37 AM   #2
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yeah I read all their posts and came up with something totally different.

I've since added a value of 50-70 for MAP Enlean but that wont affect you.

Note this isn't perfect, but it prevents the lean spike right at tip-in and doesn't go to 9:1 AFR right after that.
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Old 07-06-2009, 12:01 PM   #3
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Thanks man, I'll dump it in and go from there.
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Old 07-09-2009, 01:20 AM   #4
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So, my first ever long trip. I've done about 800 miles in the last two days. Still need to get home tomorrow. It was running decent as always, but always has the lean condition as soon as I touch the throttle from 0% TPS. I say it that way, as I don't have to be at idle. If I have the cruise on and come down the hill at 4K, as soon as it starts applying the throttle, I get the lean hiccup. When on flat ground it shudders as AFRs jump from cruise 14's to 17's when on and off the throttle.

Yesterday I had my first failure. In traffic going through Kansas City I came to a stop and it died and didn't want to start. Got it to start holding the throttle to the floor (This is full fuel cut). I had a hell of a time getting the car to move. As soon as I touched the throttle it would die. It died maybe 10 times. I started to run out of battery. Got it going and through the traffic jamb so it recharged. This I think has to do with idle air. It was in the 90's and I was stopped in traffic. It was still bad today. I have to really work at getting it away from a light-really carefully loading the gas and getting it over the hump. If you touch it it wants to die. If I hold it steady it stumbles and then catches. It drives fine after it's moving.

I also had some backfires while accelerating. That has NEVER happened before.

I'm going to put in plugs and wires when I get home. This may be contributing to the problem. The plugs are BKR7E's gapped to .028 and are new with the turbo, so maybe 3K miles. Wires were replaced with the coils, so probably 30K on them.

Unfortunately, I can't tune on the road as my work laptop has "lost" the USB driver software and won't hook up to the Adaptronic.

It's really wierd. I never had this problem in the last month so thought it was safe for it's first maiden long trip.

BTW, I tried y8s' settings but no help. I also tried both of the methods in the first post and still no help. No change in the lean tip in.
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Old 07-09-2009, 07:55 AM   #5
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You are running leading edge on the crank trigger, right?
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Old 07-09-2009, 10:01 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX-Tex View Post
You are running leading edge on the crank trigger, right?
Yes
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Old 07-09-2009, 10:03 AM   #7
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Did you get this sorted out?
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Old 07-09-2009, 10:20 AM   #8
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I have a low-mileage set of NB NGK wires if you need them. I had them for about 10K miles and took them off when I converted to COPs. You can have them if you pay for shipping.

I also have my good NB coil pack (also removed for COPs) if that turns out to be an issue; that would not be a freebie though
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Old 07-09-2009, 10:55 AM   #9
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Travis was telling me somethign about a Throttle Cracker feature that does something right at off-idle tip in. I dont use the idle settings but maybe it's related to the sensitive nature of your pedal?
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Old 07-09-2009, 11:12 AM   #10
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Throttle Cracker = White boy that habitually revs his 'mad-tite' Honda engine to the limiter at stop lights.
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Old 07-09-2009, 08:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
Did you get this sorted out?
No. I just got home from my trip. Going to work on it tonight. Note to self - never leave home on 1,000 mile round trip without tuning laptop.

Going to go over EVERYTHING again.
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Old 07-14-2009, 06:37 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stein View Post
No. I just got home from my trip. Going to work on it tonight. Note to self - never leave home on 1,000 mile round trip without tuning laptop.

Going to go over EVERYTHING again.
Stein,
Something that I noticed... when I first loaded your map, I did not have this problem. This issue oddly seems to get worse with time?

Gonna load the original map you sent me in about 20 min... then gonna adjust the tip in settings from Y8s and see if we're good. I have a 2 hour commute in stop and go traffic; so it will get tested once I'm on the open road.

BTW, have not done much tuning since I got ur map the other day. Drove the car with some wrong settings and had to start over. :( Big thumbs on a small netbook... bad mix.
Cheers,
Prospero
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:03 AM   #13
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Damn, never got a chance to toy with the settings last night. Traffic was stop and go for the entire drive home...

Asked the wife to help with the tuning but she was tired and wanted to eat and go to bed. :(

Feels like I will never get time to tune my car!!! Hate these 12-14 hour days at the office!!!

Cheers,
Prospero
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Old 08-25-2009, 04:17 PM   #14
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Necroposting myself. Travis' excellent idle set up post made me think to update this.

A couple of items.

I did try y8s's earlier settings. No change.

I did replace the plug wires. No change.

Yesterday I replaced the TPS from my spare 99 motor, relearned 0 and 100%. NO change.

The only thing that I haven't done yet is rewire the MAP. From another thread, y8s said he pulled 0-5v from the trunk line. I thought maybe mine pulling from the TPS could be messing with it, but SV650 pulled from the TPS as well. He did mention possibly a cold solder joint. That is the only thing that I haven't tried.

Also, I'm going to go through and redo idle again (for the fifth or sixth time) to make sure everything is perfect.

Any other ideas to try? It's my last problem.
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Old 08-25-2009, 04:51 PM   #15
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the trunk line? I'm confused what the trunk line is. I pulled 5V from the stock ECU's Vref wire.
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Old 08-25-2009, 04:56 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
the trunk line? I'm confused what the trunk line is. I pulled 5V from the stock ECU's Vref wire.
I knew it was something like that but I couldn't remember. I just knew that you didn't tie into the TPS like most of us.
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:42 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stein View Post
Necroposting myself. Travis' excellent idle set up post made me think to update this.

A couple of items.

I did try y8s's earlier settings. No change.

I did replace the plug wires. No change.

Yesterday I replaced the TPS from my spare 99 motor, relearned 0 and 100%. NO change.

The only thing that I haven't done yet is rewire the MAP. From another thread, y8s said he pulled 0-5v from the trunk line. I thought maybe mine pulling from the TPS could be messing with it, but SV650 pulled from the TPS as well. He did mention possibly a cold solder joint. That is the only thing that I haven't tried.

Also, I'm going to go through and redo idle again (for the fifth or sixth time) to make sure everything is perfect.

Any other ideas to try? It's my last problem.
Get the newest firmware, and software update and use the map prediction mode. Mine runs like a raped ape.

Its not tough to setup. Maybe I need to do another setup tutorial. That first 2000 word manual has knocked me out for today on writing.
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:54 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
use the map prediction mode.
wut? First that I have heard of it.
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:59 PM   #19
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Yea me too until last night when a customer called with the newest software. I didn't even get a news letter about it. Its a completely different way to tune the tip in. I did it in about 20 minutes, and the throttle response is out of this world.
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Old 08-25-2009, 06:27 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
Yea me too until last night when a customer called with the newest software. I didn't even get a news letter about it. Its a completely different way to tune the tip in. I did it in about 20 minutes, and the throttle response is out of this world.
:downloading new software:
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