Using factory ECU to control idle on NB8B plugin with e420c
 

Noteworthy thread from Andy on the Adaptronic forum...

http://adaptronic.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=3589.0

Hi all, this request was sent in via email but I thought I should explain it here.

Normally when we (used to) ship the NB8B e420c plugin boards, we connect the 4 jumpers for the Adaptronic e420c to control the idle.
If you instead want the factory ECU to control the idle, it can do this, however it does not have the full temperature input from the coolant temperature sensor, as this is used for the e420c. The aux output 1 from the e420c feeds into the temperature input on the factory ECU and can simulate either a hot or cold condition on the temperature input.

To change over to the factory ECU controlling idle:

1) Move all 4 idle control jumpers to the "Factory ECU" rather than "e420c" (in the picture they are all on "e420c")
2) Change the aux output type for aux output 1 to be "Water Temp", not inverted, not PWM, and set the thresholds to 40 degrees C (lower) and 55 degrees C (higher).

This will basically have two different coolant temperature levels to the factory ECU. It will go into "hot idle" when it gets above 55 degrees C.

Note that this is only required for the e420c plugin units. The Select NB ECUs share the coolant temperature sensors, so all you need to do is move the jumpers across, not change any aux outputs.

My request for info to Travis started this discussions =D

Did you give it a try?

Looks like there might a e420c firmware update for selectable map filtering. Should help with lean tip-in that have plagued some.

I've been using this since I first got my Adaptronic. I was told by Andy and others that it was only implemented for their testing. Wonder why they recommend it now. I never knew about the Aux output change required, I'll give that a try later today.


These are the jumpers on the E420C board for your reference

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/5522/img4859q.jpg

it works better then trying to turn idle. the stock ecu does a very good job at making the car idle under any condition. it starts up every time first crank and does not die.

That is good to know as my 420c will be going into my new car in the next few weeks. Think I'll try this method as it would be way simpler than setting up open loop/closed loop idle settings as I had to on the old car.

I'd seen the post on the adap forum, but it seemed hardly anyone had tried it out, but as you've confirmed it works well, I'll try it out. It's easily changed back to the original method if it doesn't work out for me.

Did anyone try this? How did it work?

I've just installed my adap this weekend and I've set the jumpers on the harness board to allow the factory ecu to control idle.

I went out for the first drive with the adap installed with rapid learn running to start fine tuning the excellent base map supplied by adaptronic. I was frankly amazed at the quality of the map as a whole. I've made a few changes for the map to work with my car (nbb '04, na currently, with no aircon). But the drive was like stock.

Apart from changing the jumpers over you need to change aux 1 to a water temp setting detailed here:-

http://adaptronic.com.au/forum/index.php?topic=3589.0

Idle is spot on so far in all the driving I did (admittedly only 20 miles or so). Idle sits at about 800 rpm, so a tad low, but it copes fine. I may need to adjust the throttle screw to adjust the base idle slightly, but for now I'm more than happy with it.

I've tried loading up the electrical drains that can often affect idle to see if it would make the idle drop or hunt. I had the blower on full, windscreen wipers, heated rear screen, heated seats, headlights on full beam, the lot. Caused it no problems at all. There was a very slight drop in idle, but then it recovers almost immediately.

Frankly I'm amazed. Yes I know the factory ecu is running idle so it should be good, but the fact that the adap is in the mix now made me think there would be some effect. But, no, it's spot on!

If I can just get my cranking settings fine tuned for all temps then I'll just need to let it run in rapid learn for a while to optimize the map.

try reading the whole post before asking if it works

Well this is great and all but you cant use it with out stocker injectors :(

Don't know where you got that idea but we were running idle like this with 600 DeatschWerks injectors. It's just the idle valve that the stock ECU controls.

Have you tried it with larger injectors in this configuration?

Adaptronic say that the stock ecu does not control the injectors when idling, it only controls the idle control valve, with the injectors left to the adaptronic.

Run stock idle with 335cc deatschs and 555cc five-0s. it's controls idle parameters, idle fuel is still your problem and is the way it should be. Works extremely well.

Oh wow sweet!!! I guess i'll be crawling under the dash tomorrow!!! Kinda want to try it now but its 12:21 AM :(.


How do you guys have the rest of your aux outs and digital inputs setup? Also when do you switch to closed loop? 55`?

Well i'm now running on factory idle control....AMAZING!!!

I can lift and lower my windows and rpms dont budge. I havent driven the car to the point where the fans turn on so i cant call it a sure victory just yet but i dont think i'll be disappointed.

sv650 i might just arrange you some sucky sucky from your local pimp!!! Cheers.

Well guys got some bad news. The car idles great when cold. I wait a bit for it to warm up. After i get going the rpm does not want to come down lower than 2.1k rpm.

I wonder which of my outputs can cause this or is it something else.

I'll go try setting aux 1 to none. Maybe maybe not...whats "The Select NB ECUs" mean anyways? NBB stock ecu? NBA stock ecu? Something else?

Something else is definitely fucked up. I just tried running it on inverted water temp, also tried running it on none and inverted none. Rpms drop about 200-300 from none to inverted none or vice versa. The water temp setting doesnt seem to be doing shit. I had the idle valve screw on the throttle body fully closed. Rpms didnt get any lower than 1k however it didnt want to start...made a loud pop out the exhaust. Also when the fans turned on or i lifted the windows..it died.

Currently i left it at inverted 40-55c water temp. We'll see how it will behave from cold tomorrow but i dont have my hopes up.

Fucking hell triple, read the fucking posts. everything you ask and have problems with i have already tried tested and found what works.

don't want to be a dick but god damn.

From the other thread what i'm getting is you were first running it at water temp 40-55 regular and was having the same problem as me. Then you tried inverted and it fixed it. Well it didnt for me.



Posts: 11


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1312243343
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1312243343 Re: Using factory ECU to control idle on NB8B plugin with e420c
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2011, 01:14:10 PM »

Having a new problem with stock idle. when the car is cold it idles at 1000, once it gets warm it starts idling at 2000. no matter how much i close/open the idle screw or add/remove fuel the car makes it's self idle at 2000. guessing it has something to do with the aux 1 water temp 40/82 setting as it starts the go up after 40c and gets to 2000 after 82c








jeff_man Newbie
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1312243343
Posts: 11


https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1312243343
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1312243343 Re: Using factory ECU to control idle on NB8B plugin with e420c
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2011, 11:08:38 AM »

inverting aux 1 fixed all. was going to try it before i even saw the reply as it seem logical.

idles better then ever.

The aux out and dig in settings are in my post earlier linking the adaptronic forum.

Your car won't run closed loop idle settings because the stock ecu is controlling that. The idle tab is pretty much redundant with the idle jumpers set to the stock ecu. RPM's should drop to normal idle of 8-850 when it hits 55c (well mine does). Is aux 1 set to '1 high current 3a pwm capable', type - water temp, pwm and invert set off, low thresh 40 high thresh 55?

the select ecu is the new offering from adaptronic, if you have the 420c and a pnp harness the select ecu info won't apply to you.

Might be worth posting your map file for people to look at.

The aux out 1 was set to water temp 40-55c non inverted, pwm turned off. It started okay and idled at 1400 rpm but as soon as i got going. The rpms never came down bellow 2k again. Then i inverted the water temp to see if anything changes... Nothing. Left it inverted over night to see if it will work from cold start. Still does the same thing even with the idle screw closed fully.

I did see people reduced fuel to get the idle lower... well i tried running E85 at 16:1 (gasoline gauge) so...thats lean enough.

Here is my original map before i changed the #1 aux to the above settings.

Had you adjusted the idle screw before changing over to allowing the stock ecu to control idle?

If so do you know how many turns you have adjusted it by? Might be worth putting it back to how it was before. I've not had to touch the idle screw (or do you mean the throttle screw?) or anything on the mani for that matter. Just set the adap pnp board jumpers to stock ecu to control idle and adjusted the aux 1 and digital inputs as per the info on the adap forum.

Do you have your current map available rather than the one from when the adap was controlling idle?

Skir check out the end of last page for everything I've tried with no luck. I ran it for 2 days with no luck so I'm back to adaptronic idle control. The reason why i switched back was not just because it wasnt working but because my car was still dying when the fans turn on or i lower both windows at the same time.

As it's dying when the windows are operated or the fans turn on if you've got the settings as described in that thread on the adap forum it sounds like the stock ecu is simply not controlling idle when it should be. The alternator should provide more juice for those actions when required. Have you contacted Andy at Adap as maybe the board is faulty, his e-mail is tech @ adaptronic.com.au

As an extra thought I guess you are using v9 of the firmware and wari software?

Yes i switched to a v9 3 weeks ago. Didnt notice difference in the way the car runs. Just looks a bit more plushy since it can convert psi to kpa and C to F. Other than that... well thats about it.

Skir i'm assuming u're running on stock ecu? mind sending me your ecu file so i can check the rest of your aux/ins?

yes, sure, do you have an e-mail address I can send to?

Hey guys today i screwed around with my fans a bit.... i got aux 6 to be the drivers fan and aux 7 to be the passenger fan. The settings i see on the other page are showing aux 7 as none and showing aux 8 as the passenger fan. You guys might want to check out and make sure both fans are turning on as you're not just running on a single fan with no backup.

From what I understood initially, this feature only worked with NB8B? Are these not the 2001-2005 Miata. If you have an 99-00 it doesn't work? Tripple don't you have a 99? What am I missing?

Also, forgive my computer ignorance but what do you exactly do with the jumpers? Do you unplug the black pieces and plug them into the stock bottom row? Or is it a type of switch that you push down?

Yes the black plugs are the jumpers. Warning : disconnect the battery or the Adapt before moving the jumpers.
I had almost perfect idle under the 420 closed lop control (2003 1.8 UK spec) except it had a tendency to die when I turned on the headlights. Changing to the stock ecu for idle control has resolved that issue and idle is perfect. I did have to adjust the throttle by-pass to get the warm idle correct. It starts first time and idles hot or cold. This is with a Rotrex and running stock injectors.

Does work with 01+ but some of the harnesses they made didn't have the option on them

So how is triple using this feature?

By switching the jumper on the harness board like anyone else with the stock idle option board.

There were 2 batches of harnesses, the 1st one didnt have the option, the 2nd one did for all models. Thats the one i got and its PNP for 99-00

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1314323000

What settings did you use for this please?

aux 6 water temp 90-93
aux 7 water temp 93-96 (never used ac however if you do use it make aux 7 to be "or 10/11" and make aux 10 to be 93-96)
aux 9 water temp 89-91
aux 10 water temp 92-94
aux 11 ac

Since i was using the 420 to control idle my digital inputs were as follows to boost rpm a a sec before the fans turn on (only way i've ever found to keep the motor running when the fans initially would hit).
digital inputs 6,7, as none (act low)
digital input 9 electrical load 2 act hi
digital input 10 electric load 3 act hi
digital input 11 electric load 3 act hi

Since u have a vvt model i dont know what aux your vvt control is at.

Boy am I upset I haven't tried this when this was first brought up. Thinking it wasn't applicable on 99-00 miatas and lack of room to see or work on the board kept me from checking. I used Andy's aux out and input settings and idle works flawless now with lights and windows used.

I had a couple problems though;

1. When I turned AC on, revs go from 1000 to 1500 rpms or higher.
I tried correcting this by inverting aux out 1. Rpms went down to go back up.
I also tried lowering the extra effort for elec. load 2 and 3, from 4 down to 0 with no difference at all.

2. After doing this and messing around trying to get idle down while AC on I noticed my temp gauge spiked a lot higher than ever before. It went to 225F/107C just sitting idle on a breezy cool day. The temps usually don't go above 210F/98C on a super hot day sitting in traffic. Do you think 225F for two minutes was hot enough to cause engine damage?

What most likely caused these issues and how can I go about correcting it?
Also I don't understand why output and input settings above 9 fonts are grey as if it's not functional when below 9 they are black.

Forgive me if some things have been explained already but a lot about ecu tuning confuses me.

Here are my settings. Let me know if you see anything that needs to be adjusted.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1314580822

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1314580822

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1314580822

Aux 7 should be your secondary fan so it should be an OR 9/10.

Like i said aux 7 is the passenger fan, not aux 8 like andy says so. Check it out your self. Set aux 7 to none and click inverted. Passenger fan will power on.

When you switch the jumper the idle tab is disabled and nothing you do there will change how that car runs so try adjusting your idle air screws. You can't damage an motor with 225f water temps as that's what a stock miata will see all summer in most places, I see higher on my stock 02. You need to set your water temps on aux9 and aux11 way lower, like 83/85 lower. you fans are coming on at about 200 and turning off at 195.

Jeff ur stock fans run at 96 and 101 for the passenger, 83 is way way too low. thats 181 degrees... at that temp the thermostat barely opens.

Install a 160 tstat duh.

In other news it will help with his high temps a bit tell he gets a not stock radiator or ducts it better. My fans are always running on the 99 track car above 170* and it still sits above 200* stop and go and parked.

Theres no single good reason to run a 160 tstat.

i know i have a 180 :giggle:

That's what I figured. So why does Andy tell us to put the extra effort for elect. load 2 and 3, to 4?

OOOO i didn't see that, maybe some parts of the idle table work under stock ecu idle. I don't run ac so i don't know.

This is confusing to me? So do I set it to OR 9/10 or None Inverted.

I already have a larger mishimoto radiator and am running water wetter.

Thanks for the advise guys. I am going to try the aux 7 settings tomorrow. Should I set aux 1 back to not inverted? And although I think this may help with cooling I am not sure what to do with the high idle with AC on.

First click none inverted and check the passenger fan. It should be on. Then after working confirmation, Set it to OR 9/10.

I went for a drive today and after warmed up and driving, idle went up to 2000rpms and that was with ac off.

Also I noticed my fans were on before even warmed up. Aren't they only supposed to come on at 93c.

I adjusted the throttle bypass screw all the way closed and it only brought the rpms down 100rpms. Please help I dont want to have to go back to the e420c to control idle.

I got my idle back down to 1000 with the ac off by inverting aux 1. Why does the initial post recommend not inverting aux 1 but jeff-man and my idle work better with it inverted?
Also my rpms still rise at idle with AC on or when I move my steering wheel back forth.

Steering is made like that so its normal, same with ac.

Honestly i dont know man i could never get the damn stock idle to work. Also did you invert the fans on accident?

Just as an update and for future reference Andy had me change a couple things that helped with everything. This is what he had me do.

[QUOTE]Your digital in 4 is configured as Active High, it should be Active Low - sorry I didn't see that screenshot earlier.

Aux output 8 is actually the aircon clutch, aux outputs 6 and 7 are the two fans, so Aux 8 should be set to Air Conditioner. You don't want it to come on under any other condition, otherwise you could hold the aircon compressor on and dump your refrigerant and that would be bad.

So please change:

Dig in 4 to active low
Aux out 8 to air conditioner

I would suggest leave aux output 6 as it as in the picture, and change aux output 7 to OR 9/10, so that both fans come on with the aircon.
QUOTE]

[quote=PhantomRoadster;765869]Just as an update and for future reference Andy had me change a couple things that helped with everything. This is what he had me do.

Could you post your revised map? I think my digital outputs are screwed up and my AC compressor took a dump. Could be something to do with this. Thanks.

If you drove your car in traffic a lot its very possible that the compressor kept on running.

My settings are as above and still had no luck.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1314795311

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1314795311

^^^^Thank you for posting your map, I'll look into that and compare.

thanks for the info

From a different post with a different problem dealing the stock idle.

Im just curious, why not wire the stock ecu in parallel with the adaptronic for the temp sensor?