Water temp calibration IS inaccurate in basemap - updated calibration within - Page 2 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 01-17-2010, 04:44 PM   #21
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Will we have to retune our idle settings if we change our water temp to these settings?
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Old 01-17-2010, 05:12 PM   #22
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GREAT WORK saboteur.
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Old 01-18-2010, 02:37 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomRoadster View Post
Will we have to retune our idle settings if we change our water temp to these settings?
Yes, your idle settings will be different if you change this. Really it doesn't matter too much to those of you who are currently tuning your vehicles. Your fan kick on points will probably be close to the same. Your coolant enrichment, open loop idle effort, and cracking settings will be different though and you will have to change them if you dial them in.

From what I know about these sensors, each one probably has 5%+/- in error in them. So unless you feel temperature settings are inaccurate around the fan kick on area I wouldn't touch it. For those of you who are just starting out it might be a good idea to evaluate and see if these settings give you more accurate data. Having it right from the get go is always the best policy.

I did an error analysis on the whole system that included errors from sensor manufacturing (5%) read accuracy (.5%) and inherent ADC conversion accuracy which is based on ADC to ohm step size. I came up with that even in the best possible circumstance you should be between 2-6*C off regardless of experimental error in finding the right values. Add in some error for trying to setup the chart right, and I can easily see how you get to 5-12*C range of error.

At any rate as always thanks for contributing. I'll see if I can add this to the information packet as an alternative ADC chart for WT. If a lot of people find it works better for them I'll change it in the base maps.
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File Type: pdf wterroranalysis.pdf (72.5 KB, 86 views)
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Old 01-18-2010, 01:13 PM   #24
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Yea I changed my calibration to Saboteur's settings yesterday and my idle began to hunt. I'll retune my idle settings today.
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Old 01-19-2010, 01:56 AM   #25
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Saboteur: just want to make sure. you said in original post that your Adaptronic was reading 108c, but after you recalibrate it, it is now ~91c ?

or in your example of 180 ADC, it is ~112c in my base map, and ~92c in your new calibration.

I am a bit uncomfortable with that if you know what I mean. at full WOT on track, I've seen a max of 100c based on the base map setting. that would translate to 83c in ur setting.
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Old 01-19-2010, 05:07 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
Saboteur: just want to make sure. you said in original post that your Adaptronic was reading 108c, but after you recalibrate it, it is now ~91c ?

or in your example of 180 ADC, it is ~112c in my base map, and ~92c in your new calibration.

I am a bit uncomfortable with that if you know what I mean. at full WOT on track, I've seen a max of 100c based on the base map setting. that would translate to 83c in ur setting.
100C on the basemap calibration (NB8A_plugin_setup.ecu supplied by Adaptronic) would translate to 94C on the new one (180 ADC). Can you post up your settings?

108C on old calibration is 164 ADC, which will be approx 98C on the new calibration (rough calculations done in head after consuming multiple beers).

The data to generate the Steinhart–Hart curve was from DIYAutoTune:

Temperature - Resistance In Ohms
(F/C)
014/-10 - 9000
068/+20 - 2500
176/+80 - 320

Last edited by timk; 01-19-2010 at 05:19 AM.
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Old 01-19-2010, 12:26 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by saboteur View Post
Can you post up your settings?
here is my base map setting.
if one has an OBDII port, one can just plug in a Scangauge, and read water temp, and verify that with Wari ? same for IAT
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Old 01-19-2010, 01:02 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
here is my base map setting.
if one has an OBDII port, one can just plug in a Scangauge, and read water temp, and verify that with Wari ? same for IAT
yeah except the adaptronic install in some cases jacks with the stock sensor values.
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Old 01-19-2010, 02:15 PM   #29
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I just looked at 2 more base map for NB. they are ALL calibrated differently. why is that ? this is pretty screwed up.
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Water temp calibration IS inaccurate in basemap - updated calibration within-wtc-nb8a-600cc-3bar.jpg   Water temp calibration IS inaccurate in basemap - updated calibration within-wtc-nb8a-stock-injec.jpg  
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Old 01-19-2010, 06:02 PM   #30
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Maybe we should all invest in thermometers and multimeters and calibrate against each individual sensor! Crazy!
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Old 01-19-2010, 09:38 PM   #31
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look at 2 more base maps, it also has different value.
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Water temp calibration IS inaccurate in basemap - updated calibration within-wtc-na8a-m45.jpg   Water temp calibration IS inaccurate in basemap - updated calibration within-wtc-nb8b-stock.jpg  
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Old 01-21-2010, 12:53 PM   #32
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Well, you might be seeing an evolution of base maps. We all originated from one basemap that had the coolant value in it from Adaptronic. I've never calibrated it or done anything with it. It worked fine for my car so it never crossed my mind as an issue. So it is a bit beyond me on how the basemaps all have different WT maps in them. Maybe someone somewhere along the way calibrated it and I wasn't aware of it? Then these changes got inducted into the basemaps without me paying much attention to it because I didn't expect it to change.

I'll fix it, but once again there is upto 12* of flux in temperature reading inherent in the process, and in all honesty 12*C isn't going to hurt a motor. 85 vs 97 isn't a big deal. The temperature should be able to go as high as 108*C before fan kick on would become a serious issue. Then the rest of the slop in the map is taken care of by doing your coolant enrichment trims. Of course for each car its best to have a calibrated water sensor so you know exactly what the value is, but that is a real pain in the neck for the end user, when the overall impact is really pretty small.

Best,
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:05 PM   #33
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Travis: I beg to differ. it is a lot more than 12* of flux (which is not acceptable either).

if you look at Saboteur, my base map, and 2 other base maps downloaded.

for the value of ADC on 3 different maps
240 ADC - 68c - 100c - 82c
187 ADC - 77c - 110c - 92c
153 ADC - 87c - 117c Kaboom - 100c
118 ADC - 102c - kaboom - 110c

the difference is as high as 32c delta for the same 187ADC value. if you look at the 2 NA8 base map (downloaded), they differ as much as 20c.
this is a serious problem that Adaptronic need to address. this is making me wonder that all other readings are off significantly also.

Last edited by bellwilliam; 01-21-2010 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 01-21-2010, 06:51 PM   #34
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It would be significantly hard for me to believe that you would run your vehicle up to 117C without noticing it. Something like that would be immediately noticeable the first time the car would go to idle. You would hear boiling under the hood. Even the curve that is provided by saboteur is an estimation of performance a particular water temperature sensor would go through. That equation could be 10% off itself, it’s not a law that all water sensors can be calculated by that particular response curve. Basically they tested a bunch of different water sensors then they did some statistical analysis and made some constants to fill out the equation.

The base maps are meant to be an aid to an end destination of a good tune. They are by no means meant to be a complete plug in and no further issues are going to happen kind of map because that just doesn't happen. The end user is responsible through all of this to work with his end user supplier, his tuner, and with the handbooks to make sure the system is performing up to specification. In the manual it tells you to calibrate each one of these sensors. It also says in my manual that I wrote to read the user manual thoroughly and listen to it.

It could very well be there are serious errors in the maps, but no one has reported a problem. There is also no one who has reported issues with specifically the cooling system and it over heating. Regardless of what you see in the Adaptronic your temperature gauge in the dash still works as it did before the ECU's were changed. So these are extras well above and beyond what anyone else has done for the Adaptronic. Everyone in this forum has worked together to produce these basemaps, and they are as much this collective customer property as they are mine. I worked hard to introduce the adaptronic and push the accumulation of basemap knowledge, but the guys on this forum work hard in giving me feed back as well. So if there is a correction that needs to be made then we'll make it. It could also be that the WT sensor response curves are different in each car. How do we know?? We don't, but we do know no one has blown an engine from high coolant temperature, so to some degree these maps are ok.
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Old 01-23-2010, 07:53 PM   #35
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Mine seems to behave as expected now. My main thermofan burnt out last week and my coolant temps got up to 106C in traffic, so I saw the stock gauge move from 11:30 to 11:45 if that makes sense.
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Old 01-24-2010, 09:19 PM   #36
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Travis: You took offense for no reason. fact is numbers are off a lot in these base maps. inaccurate gauge has nothing to do with engine overheating. sensor reading 130c on Adaptronic might in fact be running at only 100c or vice versa. but that doesn't mean I want to see my gauge reading wrong. I like to know when my engine is truly warmed up, or whether thermostat does indeed open at 90c. At track forum, some guages are consider junk because they might be off 5c. I don't think more than 1 in 20 customer did their own calibration on coolant sensor.

it isn't even that big of a deal for Adaptronic. all they need to do is calibrate a few common sensors and fix all the base maps.

Saboteur: I track the car pretty hard. I would like to calibrate my sensor. can you elaborate how you did it. is it as simple as putting sensor in the pan, and measure the resistance ? thanks.

Last edited by bellwilliam; 01-24-2010 at 10:26 PM.
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Old 01-24-2010, 09:32 PM   #37
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You need three temp readings at least 10C apart (the further apart the better AFAIK), once you have the readings you can use this equation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steinhart–Hart_equation

Put an accurate thermometer in with the temp sender in a cup of iced water, measure temp and resistance. Same with boiling water (it should boil at 100C but check just in case). Then room temp water.

Do you have a copy of the workshop manual? You measure the resistance between pins A and B.
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Old 01-25-2010, 12:57 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bellwilliam View Post
Travis: You took offense for no reason. fact is numbers are off a lot in these base maps. inaccurate gauge has nothing to do with engine overheating. sensor reading 130c on Adaptronic might in fact be running at only 100c or vice versa. but that doesn't mean I want to see my gauge reading wrong. I like to know when my engine is truly warmed up, or whether thermostat does indeed open at 90c. At track forum, some guages are consider junk because they might be off 5c. I don't think more than 1 in 20 customer did their own calibration on coolant sensor.

it isn't even that big of a deal for Adaptronic. all they need to do is calibrate a few common sensors and fix all the base maps.

Saboteur: I track the car pretty hard. I would like to calibrate my sensor. can you elaborate how you did it. is it as simple as putting sensor in the pan, and measure the resistance ? thanks.
I didn't take any offense, I just wanted you to know that its pretty inherent in everything to have a significant amount of error. I don't think its possible to get a high degree of precision unless we measure a WHOLE LOT of sensors, do a statistical analysis and then understand the standard deviation from the mean. Then we could figure out whats possible. At this point we don't even know what amount of accuracy is acceptable as its all speculation.

All I'm saying is that no one has complained, and no one has blown a motor. So there isn't a whole lot of reason to cause alarm. It could end up throwing everyone's coolant enrichment and everything else off, and for a pretty nugatory total effect.
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