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Originally Posted by krazykarl
(Post 1021547)
You'll probably get more benefit with more than stock power, since you'll need more power to get past the added drag from a wing, and the aero stuff make more of a difference the faster you're going.
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Originally Posted by mx5autoxer
(Post 1021528)
On another note, I haven't actually gotten to mess around with aero much on track. I really enjoy the aero aspect of going faster and I want to play with just aero for a while. I was thinking of going back to completely stock (or maybe getting another, stock Miata) and using aero only to start dropping lap times. My question is, will stock tires and suspension components interfere with aero testing or make tweaks more apparent?
If you're looking to seriously play with aero you're going to run out of suspension very quickly, and modded suspension without race tires has it's limits. My advice would be to sort out the mechanical grip on a stock powered car and than add aero. You'll need to keep playing with the suspension the more aero grip you get.
Originally Posted by krazykarl
(Post 1021547)
You'll probably get more benefit with more than stock power, since you'll need more power to get past the added drag from a wing, and the aero stuff make more of a difference the faster you're going.
You don't need more power to overcome the drag, a properly designed aero package pays big dividends in cornering speeds and will lower lap times even with stock power. Moti |
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I've always wondered why I don't see a tail like this.
Aerocivic - Honda Civic modifications for maximum gas mileage - aerocivic.com https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1371155722 |
Originally Posted by Blackbird
(Post 1021556)
While it's obvious that aero does more as speed increases, the notion in this post is the age long myth.
You don't need more power to overcome the drag, a properly designed aero package pays big dividends in cornering speeds and will lower lap times even with stock power. Moti Aero obviously helps no matter how fast you're going, otherwise those solar powered cars that only go 10 mph would just be silly looking for no reason at all. |
Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 1021551)
I'd rather have my DRS on a button for the straight.
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Originally Posted by Dot3
(Post 1021557)
I've always wondered why I don't see a tail like this.
Aerocivic - Honda Civic modifications for maximum gas mileage - aerocivic.com https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1371163451 |
Originally Posted by mr_hyde
(Post 1021572)
The only good, simple way to do this is to set up the car for the right amount downforce around the track and then have a button or other easy driver controlled input to drop the AOA for minimal drag in a straight line. On most tracks, there are at least 3 or 4 places you are accelerating for at least a few seconds without the need for extra downforce or complicated steering inputs. A radio button on the wheel would be the way to go.
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One thing no one is mentioning, is how good of a driver you would have to be to handle active aero. Driving a regular high downforce car is hard enough, with varying amounts of grip at varying speeds... let along when the amount of downforce is constantly changing.
Like rharris said, I bet we would all be faster with just plain static wings. |
Originally Posted by Handy Man
(Post 1021638)
One thing no one is mentioning, is how good of a driver you would have to be to handle active aero. Driving a regular high downforce car is hard enough, with varying amounts of grip at varying speeds... let along when the amount of downforce is constantly changing.
Like rharris said, I bet we would all be faster with just plain static wings. |
Originally Posted by triple88a
(Post 1021642)
Assuming you're doing it your self that would be harder, if its all automatic i dont see the problem.
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And the Kings of Aerodynamics
I always wanted the Red Bull X1 since the first time I saw it Go Red Bull Racing (Vettel and Webber) Thank you Adrian Newey for this piece of art https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1371175678 |
Originally Posted by Handy Man
(Post 1021638)
I bet we would all be faster with just plain static wings.
If you made the most primitive DRS, dropping the wing angle only in straights where no downforce is needed, there is no reason why you wouldn't shave some lap time. Moti |
If you want a little better detail about the most aerodynamic car, this is a cool app I just down loaded
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Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 1021643)
It seems to make gods out of men in the few supercars with it.
Originally Posted by JSpeed6
(Post 1009314)
that didn't help the Veyron that bounced off the tire wall in phoenix a few weeks ago haha
I was working that event. while I don't advise ANY cornerworker taking their eyes off a cornerstation while working, there were only 3 cars on track so I managed to snap a few pictures. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1367893215 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1367893215 |
After incident. Notice what type of active aero Veyrons use.
Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1009999)
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Originally Posted by Blackbird
(Post 1021679)
I'd have to disagree with that.
If you made the most primitive DRS, dropping the wing angle only in straights where no downforce is needed, there is no reason why you wouldn't shave some lap time. Moti |
Originally Posted by Handy Man
(Post 1021856)
Good point. I should revise my post to specify active aero under braking or cornering.
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One thing I have been thinking of since the Red Bull X2010 came out, why doesn't the front wings move?
I was reading about how the front tires on a F1 car will go from 100% grip in a straight line to 20% when taking a corner (of course it would be the inside tire of the corner). So why not run the front wing on each side be controlled by the steering rack. The front wing on the X2010 or Miata would only need to move a few degs (maybe 3-5). |
That's what the W duct is for.
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Originally Posted by 1993ka24det
(Post 1022191)
I was reading about how the front tires on a F1 car will go from 100% grip in a straight line to 20% when taking a corner (of course it would be the inside tire of the corner). |
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Originally Posted by Blackbird
(Post 1022216)
That's what the W duct is for.
Originally Posted by z31maniac
(Post 1022275)
I need some more explanation on this one. I'm not sure what you're getting at.
When a F1 car takes a corner, the tire that is on the inside of the turn will loose the amount of traction it has with the ground. Why not create more downforce on that tire. Here is a pics of a Formula that ramped the inside tire off of the gator strip. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1371423828 I found this bumper that is on the 2012 911 GT3 RSR, when I was looking for Crusher style bumpers on other cars to get some ideas. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1371423828 |
Originally Posted by 1993ka24det
(Post 1022282)
What do you mean? W?
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I wish there was a way of Formula 1 could move technology along by going into uncharted territory. I know they are doing next year of a Double KERS-- electric motor attached to the front of the turbo for anti-lag. The sanctioning body (FIA) is always making the car slower by the rules and the engineers find ways around it. So one year they should do active aero (moving parts) besides the DRS. I want to see what Adrian Newey would come up with. |
There was a good article in Racer earlier this year about F1 with no limits. They outlined all kinds of technology that exists that the teams can't exploit due to the rules limiting the performance of the car. Example: paint that has molecules that stand up when braking and an electric current is applied. This would be used for extra drag to aid in braking.
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Part of the limits put on Fi is to help keep the drivers safe. We haven't lost a driver in almost 20 years. A few decades earlier, drivers were killed almost every year. Sid Watkins had a lot to do with the current safety focus after he watched Senna die so hopefully everyone will stay sane and the controls will remain in place now that he is gone. Any series with that much money involved that was truly unlimited would result in body bags needed every season. Personally, I'm happy to leave some potential lap time on the table if I don't need to see someone die on my TV.
Grand Prix: The Killer Years on Vimeo |
Originally Posted by mr_hyde
(Post 1022448)
Part of the limits put on Fi is to help keep the drivers safe. We haven't lost a driver in almost 20 years. A few decades earlier, drivers were killed almost every year. Sid Watkins had a lot to do with the current safety focus after he watched Senna die so hopefully everyone will stay sane and the controls will remain in place now that he is gone. Any series with that much money involved that was truly unlimited would result in body bags needed every season. Personally, I'm happy to leave some potential lap time on the table if I don't need to see someone die on my TV.
Grand Prix: The Killer Years on Vimeo I'd like to see a budget cap and greatly reduced regulations. But I'll stop there since we are drifting off-topic. |
Safety is important, but neutering the cars in the name of safety is a cop-out (look at IndyCar)
I prefer budget and or fuel quantity restrictions. |
Originally Posted by mr_hyde
(Post 1022448)
Part of the limits put on Fi is to help keep the drivers safe. We haven't lost a driver in almost 20 years. A few decades earlier, drivers were killed almost every year. Sid Watkins had a lot to do with the current safety focus after he watched Senna die so hopefully everyone will stay sane and the controls will remain in place now that he is gone. Any series with that much money involved that was truly unlimited would result in body bags needed every season. Personally, I'm happy to leave some potential lap time on the table if I don't need to see someone die on my TV.
Grand Prix: The Killer Years on Vimeo |
Originally Posted by ThePass
(Post 1021305)
Might've gotten just a few of his ideas from the Peugot 208.. ;)
Also, with all this talk about active aero, check out Aeromotions. They've been doing this stuff for years and have a nicely refined solution. It's expensive, but it's certainly something to aim for! http://aeromotions.com/ssp_director/...x&m=1247585708 |
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For F1 and other race series it is just in the rules for no moveable aerodynamic devices.
In F1 they added the stuff for "two position wings" to try to increase passing, along with a bunch of rule relating to how often it can be used like they are only allowed to switch it twice a lap, etc, so it is movable, but limited so its not full on active aero on a slightly different topic, This is I believe an LMP2 cars nose off the car at the prep for the 24 hour race, Smooth and contoured to the wheel in the front, and then all the venting above and to the rear of the wheel. Have not seen any good pictures to how the suspension is routed to see how they use that to help vent air in/out thou https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...1&d=1371532996 |
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A bit more on topic, can someone explain why Peugeot setup the front aero the way they have on Loeb's Pikes Peak Challenger?
Around the front seems quite different to how aero is typically handled, on production bodied cars? Mainly the way air is being routed/blocked around the end of the splitter? https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1371578704 |
Are you referring to the lack of dive planes/spats?
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Pike's Peak unlimited class vehicles are just that; unlimited. As a result they can do stuff with aero that isn't legal or feasible elsewhere. One example is the giant vertical panels on either side of the splitter. The idea is to force as much air up and over the car as possible, producing downforce on its own and feeding the rear wing.
It's not a new solution. See the Suzuki below. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1371585919 |
The splitter end plates also serve to prevent the air from spilling off when you turn.
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https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1372126292
All that splitter length and not much isolating it on the sides. Fail or no fail? Am I crazy in thinking that setups like these are probably backyard fabricators who looked at some pictures of Group B rally cars? |
Some of that splitter isnt doing something. You're only going to be able to make a certain sized zone of high pressure above the splitter without it spilling off or flowing through the radiator or over the top of the car. You'll also notice the front scraper thingy that is preventing air from traveling under the splitter that certainly isnt helping the bernoulli effect downforce from the splitter. I would expect that car to suffer from a massive mid corner and corner exit snap push. All of a sudden the high pressure stuck on that splitter when going straight will spill off once the car turns in. I know I feel it sometimes in my car on long (for auto-x) sweepers. I'm sure the road race guys with splitters on the bigger end of the spectrum feel it, the more the splitter sticks out the more noticeable it is (in theory).
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I was some where on a Japanese forum that I read, that the splitter efficiency drops of after 100-120mm if there isn't anything else besides the splitter.
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Advertising revenue...
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Originally Posted by 1993ka24det
(Post 1024766)
I was some where on a Japanese forum that I read, that the splitter efficiency drops of after 100-120mm if there isn't anything else besides the splitter.
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Originally Posted by cordycord
(Post 1024791)
Advertising revenue...
but seriously. Whats the rod sticking out behind the headlight? Maybe its a mounting point for an end plate that isn't mounted at the moment? |
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie
(Post 1024756)
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1372126292
All that splitter length and not much isolating it on the sides. Fail or no fail? Am I crazy in thinking that setups like these are probably backyard fabricators who looked at some pictures of Group B rally cars? |
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Rally Ready looks like the Jurassic Park logo for some reason...
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I see what they did there. :squint:
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Originally Posted by z31maniac
(Post 1024956)
This car is being supported by Vorshlag at the upcoming Pikes Peak Rally. They have added the end fences to the splitter like the Loeb's car I posted earlier.
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Originally Posted by z31maniac
(Post 1024956)
This car is being supported by Vorshlag at the upcoming Pikes Peak Rally. They have added the end fences to the splitter like the Loeb's car I posted earlier.
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It looks like that evo got some splitter endplates.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1372280552 |
Glad to see the talk of the splitter spill plates. After running the Dragon IV hillclimb this past weekend with a COT wing and splitter, I am going to give a plywood Loeb-esque splitter a try at the August event. At the neutral setting on the wing, the car was still pushing through the sweepers. I have the ABS air dam that many folks do on here, and I think the fact that so much of the surface area of the splitter is towards the side of the air dam was limiting its effectiveness. Keep in mind, the top speed I can hit on this course is just on the other side of 100 MPH, and with 400+ HP at the crank, I'm willing to sacrifice some drag.
As far as "channeling" the air from the front to go up and over to the rear wing, does anyone here have any thoughts on running vertical fins on the roof edges? I know the NASCAR boys do it to slow the car down when they get sideways, but would there be any merit in using them to help keep the air that makes its way over the roof from spilling off the sides? |
Originally Posted by Supe
(Post 1025565)
As far as "channeling" the air from the front to go up and over to the rear wing, does anyone here have any thoughts on running vertical fins on the roof edges? I know the NASCAR boys do it to slow the car down when they get sideways, but would there be any merit in using them to help keep the air that makes its way over the roof from spilling off the sides?
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Originally Posted by Leafy
(Post 1025571)
Wasnt this popular in japanese touring cars or something? They would basically have endplates the whole length of the top of the car.
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How was the hill climb? I've always wanted to do that one. Did you happen to see my friend Jeremy Deitzel in the black Evo? I used to do the PA hill climb circuit with him.
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Originally Posted by Handy Man
(Post 1025586)
How was the hill climb? I've always wanted to do that one. Did you happen to see my friend Jeremy Deitzel in the black Evo? I used to do the PA hill climb circuit with him.
I did get an opportunity to meet Jeremy (we were BS'ing quite a bit over the course of the weekend), great guy, KILLER car. He finished second overall before tearing his exhaust and splitter off towards the end. Hope he comes down for some events next year, as it's looking like there will be one old hillclimb site resurrected, and a new one looming on the horizon. |
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Originally Posted by Supe
(Post 1025589)
I did get an opportunity to meet Jeremy (we were BS'ing quite a bit over the course of the weekend), great guy, KILLER car. He finished second overall before tearing his exhaust and splitter off towards the end. Hope he comes down for some events next year, as it's looking like there will be one old hillclimb site resurrected, and a new one looming on the horizon.
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I wanted to add some food for thought with some nakedness. I have always wanted to know a little bit more about the Mclaren P1 and the door aero, so here are some pics I found in the latest Motortrend.
The intake right below the door window goes to the engine radiator it seams and in the door below that duct there is a intake for the rear brakes. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1372531266 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1372531266 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1372531266 |
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I was looking around for some more ideas and came across pics of a Time Attack car with a Exhaust Blown Diffuser
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1372574860 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1372574860 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1372574860 |
Hmmm.... methinks I need to get the sawzall out. I wonder how much exhaust velocity there really needs to be to see any appreciable gain.
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I went to the autocross at Virginia Tech yesterday and talked to the VT Formula SAE team. They were running both last year's and this year's cars. Here's last year's car.
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1372599754 Its hard to see, but it has a full undertray. That and other parts were transferred to this year's car with the addition of a front and rear wing. The wing's were designed with a total wind downforce of 100 lbs. with the front producing 60 lbs. and the rear producing 40lbs. These numbers were based on the cars 40/60 front/rear distribution. Next year they are setting a C/D limit and aiming to increase the combined wing downforce to 150 lbs. I asked the guy that ran the CFD why the undertrays didn't flair up in the front to be more air foil shaped. He said that they did at first, but they found that the air stagnated because it was too big of an opening, so they went with a flat opening. He also said that next year they will add some type of vent to give it more air and increase downforce. I think he meant something like a few small NACA ducts. The cars ran a lot faster than everything else (even though they only have 58 hp to work with) except for a formula ford that showed up. The weird thing is, though, that last year's car ran about 4 seconds faster than this year's (and I'm almost positive it wasn't due to cone penalties). https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1372599754 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1372599754 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1372599754 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1372599754 |
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