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Thanks, that's what I was thinking too.
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Great pics, thanks! Were those Z4 hood scoops sealed to the radiator?
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Originally Posted by Supe
(Post 1121023)
Great pics, thanks! Were those Z4 hood scoops sealed to the radiator?
Not My Pic https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397344487 |
I wonder where those hoses go...transmission cooler? cabin vent?
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Airflow, Cooling, Airflow, Cooling, Airflow, Cooling... such high priorities for proper race cars, and so overlooked/low priority in the minds of many DIYers. Makes me feel good about all the time I'm putting into these two things right now on my own car. Thanks for the awesome pics :)
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3 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by ecc3189
(Post 1121029)
I wonder where those hoses go...transmission cooler? cabin vent?
Originally Posted by ThePass
(Post 1121034)
Airflow, Cooling, Airflow, Cooling, Airflow, Cooling... such high priorities for proper race cars, and so overlooked/low priority in the minds of many DIYers. Makes me feel good about all the time I'm putting into these two things right now on my own car. Thanks for the awesome pics :)
That's what I'm working on and it hasn't been done on any other Miata. I'm installing 5-10 NACA ducts on the underbody and making away for more air to make its way out of the back. Plus the V8's exhaust will come out on either side of the license plate. Still a work in progress... https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397351717 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397351717 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397351717 |
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https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397362168
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397362168 I have a rather odd access to this car. I also have some more shots. I will look for them. *sorry for shitty pics it was nighttime and was loading it :/ |
Originally Posted by 1993ka24det
(Post 1121024)
Yes they are sealed and the engine intakes go right up to the front grill
Not My Pic https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397344487 |
Originally Posted by 1993ka24det
(Post 1121051)
Trying something new
That's what I'm working on and it hasn't been done on any other Miata. I'm installing 5-10 NACA ducts on the underbody and making away for more air to make its way out of the back. Plus the V8's exhaust will come out on either side of the license plate. Still a work in progress... The stuff I'm working on is all on the front right now, basically reworking all of the airflow (both exterior and ducted) forward of the windshield. -Ryan |
Thanks for the pictures. The duct work on the McLaren is jaw dropping.
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I'm not understanding the headlight duct that exits in front of the front wheel on the McLaren? I've seen a similar setup on some 911s but I can't wrap my head around pushing air out at a 90 degree angle to the flow around the car. It must work if McLaren does it though...
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Originally Posted by njn63
(Post 1121223)
I'm not understanding the headlight duct that exits in front of the front wheel on the McLaren? I've seen a similar setup on some 911s but I can't wrap my head around pushing air out at a 90 degree angle to the flow around the car. It must work if McLaren does it though...
Honestly, love the technology but not the shape. |
Originally Posted by njn63
(Post 1121223)
I'm not understanding the headlight duct that exits in front of the front wheel on the McLaren? I've seen a similar setup on some 911s but I can't wrap my head around pushing air out at a 90 degree angle to the flow around the car. It must work if McLaren does it though...
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The opening on the side of the door next to the 2 ducts is for the rear brakes. Here is a pic of the rear brake
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397440174 |
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Originally Posted by 1993ka24det
(Post 1121051)
Which Pic?
Originally Posted by 1993ka24det
(Post 1121051)
Trying something new
That's what I'm working on and it hasn't been done on any other Miata. I'm installing 5-10 NACA ducts on the underbody and making away for more air to make its way out of the back. Plus the V8's exhaust will come out on either side of the license plate. Still a work in progress... https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397493401 |
Venting air above the rear diffuser is definitely common practice among race cars. Usually it's slower moving air that has already passed through heat exchangers, transmission tunnel, or a rear engine bay.
Less common but very cool is pulling fast-moving air from the sides and channeling it to the top of the diffuser to fill the space behind the car. Some LMPs have done this. Not sure how similar of an effect taking air from below the car would give, I'd be concerned about possibly decreasing diffuser effectiveness. -Ryan |
Originally Posted by ThePass
(Post 1121535)
I'd be concerned about possibly decreasing diffuser effectiveness.
-Ryan |
As a drastically simplified rule of thumb, downforce > reduced drag, so I'd expect that reducing the diffuser's effect to reduce drag wouldn't add up to a net improvement. In lap times, that is. If we're talking fuel economy that's a whole different ball game ;)
-Ryan |
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Here are a few designs that DP Cars have on their BEC's, It is something close to what I'm doing
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397556963 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397556963 Next Design https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397556963 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397556963 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397556963 |
Looks to me like that isn't NACA ducts for the purpose of getting the air above the diffuser, that's literally two diffusers, one in front of the other. Moving air to the top of the second diffuser is a byproduct of having the first one in front of it, but it's not the goal, the goal is to have two diffusers (awesome)
-Ryan |
Originally Posted by ecc3189
(Post 1121441)
It looks like someone has already done what you're trying :rofl: This is a miata right? :P
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397493401 |
My neighbor who works on vintage formula one cars suggested that I slightly ark up the splitter where it passes under the empty cavity between the sub frame and bumper. He said that ark would help create downforce.
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Originally Posted by k24madness
(Post 1122185)
My neighbor who works on vintage formula one cars suggested that I slightly ark up the splitter where it passes under the empty cavity between the sub frame and bumper. He said that ark would help create downforce.
Originally Posted by Mobius
(Post 1015394)
John, according to my copy of Competition Car Aerodynamics, for a car with a quote unquote stock, "dirty" undercarriage (ie, no flat floor here - a nascar type sedan is the particular model used, but should apply equally well to our miatas) the effect of a front splitter is drastically improved when it is coupled with a front diffuser compared to a front airdam with a splitter sticking out the front and no aero behind the airdam.
When I create my front splitter, it will include a diffuser section running back to where the stock undertray mounts now. https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...h_diffuser-jpg |
Originally Posted by k24madness
(Post 1122185)
My neighbor who works on vintage formula one cars suggested that I slightly ark up the splitter where it passes under the empty cavity between the sub frame and bumper. He said that ark would help create downforce.
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K24 - from that description I'm picturing a bubble that arcs up and then drops back down when it reaches the front subframe. Or was he suggesting a regular diffuser that would arc up and basically send air at/over the front subframe rather than below it?
I have diffusers in my front splitter, I just haven't put pictures of it out there ;) -Ryan |
Sounds to me like the neighbor's describing what's in the picture. Merge the splitter up to the front subframe, or to the level of the flat floor if one's been implemented.
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From what I posted up on the page before. They talk about equaling the rear wing out with active aero under the front. I am guessing in saying that it prob is the 2 front diffusers in front of the Front Tires.
Originally Posted by 1993ka24det
(Post 1121235)
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Originally Posted by Mobius
(Post 1122251)
Sounds to me like the neighbor's describing what's in the picture. Merge the splitter up to the front subframe, or to the level of the flat floor if one's been implemented.
-Ryan |
I think we all agree, and should now consume significant numbers of pints together. Come to Portland bitches! I'll buy the first round.
The active underbody aero part of the P1 is fascinating - and is what makes this truly a supercar in my humble opinion. As evidenced numerous times on this forum, anybody can slap a powerful engine into a responsive chassis and add some home-grown aero and embarrass Very Expensive Cars on track. True active aero management requires tools beyond those available to us DIY'ers. To do it in such a way that it is seamless to the driver is impressive. |
Very much agree indeed.
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Originally Posted by ThePass
(Post 1122210)
K24 -I'm picturing a bubble that arcs up and then drops back down when it reaches the front subframe.
-Ryan It's amazing to see some of the aero designs of the formula one cars over the years. The tunnel cars were the coolest IMHO. |
splitter
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This is the splitter made for the Catfish. The two rear mounting bolts connect to the Miata K-member. Without spacers at the K-member--at least on the Catfish--the splitter angles upward slightly. I use spacers to flatten it out, and regardless feel a noticeable difference in down force, especially on the brakes.
Anyone with basic skills could make this part, or trace it and have a local shop plasma cut it from a sheet of aluminum. |
How thick of an aluminum did you go with?
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Originally Posted by Supe
(Post 1122837)
How thick of an aluminum did you go with?
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https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397939487
Originally Posted by 1993ka24det
(Post 1122301)
From what I posted up on the page before. They talk about equaling the rear wing out with active aero under the front. I am guessing in saying that it prob is the 2 front diffusers in front of the Front Tires. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48LEh-gv85Y
McLaren P1 Under Diffuser Looking Forward https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397938905 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397938905 McLaren P1 Under Front Splitter Looking back towards the right front tire https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397938905 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397938905 McLaren P1 Underbody http://i526.photobucket.com/albums/c...psd04a047f.jpg McLaren P1 Under Front Left Tire https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397938905 McLaren P1 Rear Cooling Fans with Carbon Blades and Shroud https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397938905 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397938905 McLaren P1 Back https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397938905 https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397938905 Love That Paint https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1397938905 |
Originally Posted by 1993ka24det
(Post 1123263)
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The more pictures I see, the better and better the McLaren aero gets. Fantastic.
There is an article in Racecar Engineering this month on the Porsche 919 LMP, but it does not show much on the aerodynamics unfortunately. They do however have an article on testing the effects of rake and ride height on the Praga R1 in a wind tunnel. The testing showed what generally applies to undertray aerodynamics. Downforce is sensitive to ride height, and the bias of the undertray downforce shifts fore and aft with rake; increasing rear ride height (or decreasing the front) shifts the undertray downforce balance (center of effort) forward. Here is the Praga R1 http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...-on-our-shores There is also a good article about the effects of yaw on wing downforce and what happens when you add intermediate spill plates. |
Woah. Never heard of the Praga before. Looks awesome.
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Thought I'd share this one:
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Originally Posted by greeenteeee
(Post 1125141)
Thought I'd share this one:
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The thing that I found deceiving about that vid is that with CFD, we're used to seeing reds signify high pressure areas and blues are low pressure. At first I was like, WTF why is the base of the windshield the lowest pressure spot on that model??
But, in that video they are showing friction, not pressure - where red is high friction (due to fast-moving air) and blue is low friction (slow air). The gist of Bernoulli's principle is that an increase in the speed of a fluid = a deacrease in pressure. So, if you want to translate what you see in that vid to pressure, the colors flip-flop. This might have been obvious to others, but it threw me off for a moment. Looking at the friction/speed of air on the car body is quite useful for considering NACA duct locations though.. :) -Ryan |
A little 5 page link
Aero Hunting @ WTAC | Speedhunters |
8 Attachment(s)
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Would ducting forward slanted radiator out the hood work? Definitely. And very well.
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Will work in a miata? I'd be concerned about heat soak. I was just a little surprised looking at it... air goes through, hits duct wall then straight up with a slight forward tilt.
That's using the low pressure zone of the hood... I liked. |
The air exiting the heat exchanger is moving so much slower than the air entering that it doesn't have any problems making a surprising amount of bends and turns to find its way out.
I've seen discussions about this referencing race cars which have up to 180* bends in the post-heat exchanger ducting that took the air back forwards to an exit even. As long as the exit point is a low pressure area, the inlet is much higher in pressure, and the whole path in/out is well built (doesn't flex with pressure and open up gaps) and sealed, the air will find its way. The ducting on the inlet side is much more sensitive to sharpness of bends - you want smooth, gradual, few curves to preserve all the flow and pressure possible into the cooler. -Ryan |
This ^. The high pressure air, take care with it, treat it well, make sure it gets to where it needs to go without expending much energy to do it. The low pressure air, just don't fuck it up, feed it to a low pressure zone, maybe give it a reverse naca duct/diffuser if it needs to speed back up much.
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The new DTM cars have a lot of pretty cool aero design. I like the ductwork moving air out from under the car (with NACA ducts venting something!)
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1398781817 All of the pictures can be found HERE at the original article. I like the side mirror design (getting it away from the boundary layer air along the body) and the side exit exhaust they have had for a while. I've also noticed that a lot of cars that vent their wheel wells put a fence behind the front tire to protect the negative pressure. Might be a good alternative to just having the fender cut on the bottom half |
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stickers stick
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All you really need to know is that STICKERS.
I mean, why do you think race cars are covered in them, right? I caught this racing Camaro GT diffuser in the parking lot last night... |
Clearly the drag coefficient of thebplastic in the stickers is less than that of the aluminium and plastic bumper.
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In the larger scheme of things, we're chasing aerodynamic efficiency and downforce because pure mechanical grip has a limit, and it's surprising how close the mechanical limits can tie dissimilar cars together.
For example, I remember seeing a 60 to 0 brake test where a Mercedes S500 matched an Acura NSX. Surely we're just talking one stop, but the extra weight of the S500 increased the grip of the tires to the point that it matched the NSX. With no aero help, many cars seem to go around the same corner at relatively similar speeds. |
STICKERS. I've been doing it wrong...
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"I'm a Racecar, I really, really am"--Jeremy Clarkson
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Do not mess with my diffuser!
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I'm trying out aluminum strakes on my diffuser, and the outcome looks like a cross between a cheese grater and a Mad Max movie. :)
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Active aero sexy time footage!
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So with the P1 and the LaFerrari how are the active aero computers programmed? It seems that both can sense when you are on a straight and they will assume the lowest drag configuration. But I noticed in that video that the LaFerrari didn't have its rear spoiler out coming around that really tight last corner, but it looked like it was sensing some high speed corners and deploying the rear spoiler and feathering the diffuser.
Also, Koenigsegg is entering the active aero game with the One:1, so it should get interesting. Here's a video about it that I watched the other day. |
Originally Posted by mx5autoxer
(Post 1129914)
So with the P1 and the LaFerrari how are the active aero computers programmed?
Using GPS+maps they can even attempt to guess what settings to use in 2-5 seconds. Speed, acc/ret, tps, etc are easy, but making something worth the effort out of it takes some thinking. |
If you could drive one what would it be? 918, P1 or LaFerrari. Since now the LaFerrari XX has been released from the Crazy floor of the Ferrari Plant. They now said the LaFerrari XX will be dropping the V12 for a F1 inspired turbo 1.6L V6. McLaren is now going to take the fight back to Ferrari with a full track version of the P1 with more Aerodynamic package. We will see who will be the king of the Nurburgring.
a little of topic but, I asked this question to a group of Miata buddies at World Of Beer,"If money was no object and you could buy any track day car in the world what would it be, but it HAS to be your daily driver?" |
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