S4 Turbo w/ V-Band Clamps in the works
 

The turbo is here, the wastegate is here, the v-band clamps are here - let the fun begin.

We will be making a S4 turbo system with all v-band clamps. The turbo is a beauty! The manifold will be made of cast weld elbows and ceramic coated. More photos will be posted later.

No, it is not for sale yet. If fitment and testing goes well, we will make an S4 externally gated kit for the 1.8L cars.

BEGi - - Front Page News - v_band_turbo

Stephanie

that tial Vband housing is spendy--especially when you consider almost $200 in "support parts" to mount it to the rest of the exhaust system!

This sounds familiar.

What turbo are you using?

You got that right. Retail ATP prices are ~+$100 for the turbine (if ordered with the turbo), +$49 for each v-band flange (for manifold and downpipe), +$36 for each clamp. Then you need to add an external gate, that fancy new v-band 38mm TiAL EWG retails for $279.

Cha-ching!

It is about an extra $200 in pieces to make it work. (not including the cost of the turbine housing) That is one of the downsides, and why it is not more popular. But each person has to weight the pro and cons for themselves to see if it is worth it. For serious track guys with studs loosening, it may be a god send. For the street car user, it won't matter one way or the other.

We are using a GT2860 w/ 0.64 AR and the Tial stainless turbine housing.

Stephanie

Interesting.
And will there be a version of this for the 1.6, or will the 1.6 S4 remain as it is today?

dont get me wrong, I think V-banding the hot parts together will probably save you their cost in melted shit at the track.

And endless loose / broken studs.

I like!

did someone call you this morning posing as me? Suddenly I feel left out on the fun.

Can I buy it if my studs fail again?

If the 1.8L works as anticipated, we will probably do a 1.6L version.
Stephanie

Niaaaaaaaaaaaaace. So the kit will be an upgrade kit? TiAL housing, manifold, wastegate, downpipe? Any ideas on the price ballpark?

Didn't even see this thread until now. The kit is for me and I will keep you guys updated with how it is going. Should have it this week and will start getting it all together over the next few weeks.

If you are going to the TWS trackday on 10/9, I will probably have it there.

awesome! can't wait to see it.

Manifold and Downpipe photos!

http://www.bellengineering.net/templ...e/P7266996.JPG

http://www.bellengineering.net/templ...e/P7267003.JPG

http://www.bellengineering.net/templ...e/P7267004.JPG

http://www.bellengineering.net/templ...e/P7287032.JPG

http://www.bellengineering.net/templ...e/P7287033.JPG

http://www.bellengineering.net/templ...e/P7287034.JPG

http://www.bellengineering.net/templ...e/P7287035.JPG

http://www.bellengineering.net/templ...e/P7287039.JPG

Stephanie

+ Very, veryy sexy manifold! Price point for MF+DP?
+ No brace!
- Downpipe flange looks ghetto :)
- Waste needs re-introduced further down, no?

Works with which TiAL housings?

good news rharris,
I found the dyno, and its at a friend's house in Austin, lol.

we'll see if schedule-40 can hang.
as long as it doesn't overboost, who cares?
turn the boost knob 1/16th of a turn
yes

looks pretty except that wg merge... that's like making a right turn onto the freeway.

and hustler, turning the boost knob wont fix spool/spike problems.

mild steel or stainless manifold that's coated? Image of the inside of the collector?

Price? !!

Looks likes a "fun" manifold to make hehe :)

anything has to be more ideal than my wastegate merge.

What diameter is this downpipe?

Tim built it off the jig for fitment. Not the most beatuiful piece, no. We're going for function. Yeah, Corky loved making this thing. It is mild steel that is ceramic coated.

No price yet, waiting to see how well it works.
Stephanie

Steph, I don't see anywhere if it's schedule 10, 40, 80?

I do not know what schedule size. However, it is 0.145" wall thickness.
Stephanie

.145 is schedule 40 :bigtu:

Good to know! Thanks Tim.

I will have prices of the S4 kit with V Band and EXT WG posted later this week. The car will be here in a day or so, I can photograph it real well, and fix one minor problem. The Ext WG vent tube had a real tight swage and needs to be loosened. Not a big deal and easy to fix. Otherwise, fitment was ok. :)
Stephanie

Guys, I saw this car Saturday...it is one VERY nice looking kit. Didn't get to see it run due to what I consider an expected first kit off the line error, but screams power and durability.

Watch out if rharris makes it to H2R next month.

The car itself is going to be awesome. The driver on the other hand.......hopes the car makes him look atleast half way decent.

The kit came out great. I was very impressed with the level work done on it. The downpipe hitting was the only part I was worried about before I got it, but it fits perfectly. Side to side gap is even and it is all one piece! No more messing with the long bolt to tighten up the DP.

I'm very impressed and we should be getting some serious power out of it when I drop it off on Friday.

Install photos:
http://www.bellengineering.net/templ...e/P8107213.JPG

http://www.bellengineering.net/templ...e/P8107215.JPG

http://www.bellengineering.net/templ...e/P8107225.JPG
Stephanie

on the next one, install the WG closer to horizontal and save yourself a wg bend.

It would hit brake lines if installed horizontally.
Stephanie

pff dont need brakes to go fast.

Corky keeps telling me that. In fact, he claims I do not need them at all.
Stephanie

^^^ Damn, and I just dropped all that money on upgrading the brakes. Should have just taken them out. Think of the weight savings...

Nice stuff Steph, looks sexy. What about bracing, does it have any? Need it?

No bracing so far. This manifold is much thicker than the standard manifold, therefore Corky does not think it will need a brace.
Stephanie

It's done!
BEGI S6 Turbo System, The Ultimate Miata Turbo Kit BEGi
Stephanie

Holy Shit!

Ya'll shoulda just called it the S11.

I'm already 15% of the way there in my savings account...give you a call next year.

In for BIG dyno graphs when someone maxes this system out.

That's what I'm saying...

Why stop at 6...just come out and say: These go to 11!



Did we ever come to a conclusive call on why rharris's car didn't make the planned power?

Shouldn't intake manifold be the first thing on this list of things you're going to max out?

I'm still saving my coin either way.

We never saw a fuel table, spark table, or datalog. They do not lie.

I just want to know...when you start thinking big...like 400+whp BIG...what's the real bottleneck.

I know JayL makes a lot of power through a stock intake manifold, but last I heard this was where the blame was placed for the yellow car's poor showing.

I'm still with the turbine A/R crowd.

They are still thinking it is the turbine a/r and possibly the Intake manifold. At this point, the intake manifold is the easiest/cheapest/fastest part to fix and re-tune.

The car made 284 whp, and 267 ft lbs of torque at 4300 rpm. That is awesome until you see the torque taper off to red line and know what boost level it is running. If I told you that it was running 13-14 psi you would think it was THE bomb. But at 16-17 psi, you start to question it. It would appear that the lower a/r, which was chosen for faster spool up, will not be the ideal set up. It spools fast, so the lower a/r is doing what it is supposed to, it just does not meet the power goals.

The new intake manifold is installed. We need to run vacuum lines to it and it will be up and running. We will know for sure whether it is the turbine housing or IM after tuning.
Stephanie

We tried to make the stainless tube manifold work with the v-band. The problem is the support brace would still be needed and there is no where to put it that is solid. We had a solid flange before, but not now. So we are left with the more expensive option of making it in house, from thicker material. Plus the added expense of the v-band flanges and clamps. We also decided to include the turbo coolant re-route with the kit, as most people who track their car have a similar set up.
Stephanie

Steph, remember when we tuned my car? The torque died to0.

Remember that on my car, we're talking about the Dynojet you guy's use and the DynoDynamics that we tuned my car on...my DD read 12% lower. My 261whp/252swtq comes to 288/277 if we allow some fudge factor and use a 10% shift. I should also note that these #'s were done with a 3" exhaust...and a 2.5" exhaust gasket (duh) with your log manifold (it was much faster after pulling the gasket, and I had to add some fuel). Even with the big turbine, my torque dies too.

I questioned the intake plenum initially, then I reviewed my compressor map:
http://www.atpturbo.com/root/maps/im...rscompress.gif
How much air are we actually moving, and how much frictional loss do we incurr? We may be at the limits of the compressor. Or...are we limited by the head? Its easy to look at at Honda or Nissan head and consider these questions when you compare them to a miata head...even one that's been ported.
Did you hit MBT in Rob's car, or detonation?

Can we see the tables and the log?

I also plan to tune my car on Sunday with the Absurdflow hot-parts and we'll see if the #'s change. I have a feeling they won't, and that torque will die, again.

If I had the tables and logs, I would be happy to share them. There are on Tim's laptop right now.
Stephanie

I ain't got jack shitznit on my laptop.



Ohhhh right wrong tim. You need to rename that boy.

I'm getting on a mustang dyno this thursday. I will probably break it with the insane torque I'm about to lay down.

You people are truly bad people at your core. This shit is necessary on my car. I want it. I will have to go back into the illicit trade business to fund this expenditure.

Well we have ruled out the intake manifold. That was not it. Has to be the turbine a/r. Back to back dyno runs and more accurate WG spring showed no dyno improvement. So the only thing left is the a/r ratio.
Stephanie

Did that intake have a 70mm throttle body or the OEM throttle body?

I just talked to Robert about this as he was scooping more free parts I need into trunk this morning. I was sorry to hear that's the case as I know he's ready to make big power.


Ya'll are still planning on running back to back dyno runs to test OEM manifold versus new one even after changing turbine A/R right?

This would give us 4 graphs of the same setup to judge effects of both variables. I was pretty well convinced from the get go that the turbine was the problem with HIS car...but I'm sure the intake manifold will make a big difference for EVERYONE.

If we can get the car back, then yes, we will do back to back testing.
Stephanie

According to all the big-brained people I've spoken with, you have to either pick long runner or short runner...which means mid or high-end torque. I'm fine with my parabolic torque...but it may be different now with my new goodies.

I would not complain about 260 ft-lbs torque at 4300 rpm. I think that would be way too much fun. But on the track, it might not be ideal.
Stephanie

Its not. I didn't print anything out from my last dyno session due to the leak, but my curve was flat at 10psi. It was also flat at 10psi on the old set-up. When we cranked the boost up, the hump emerged.

There's a mechanical blockage somewhere in there and as soon as I get back to the dyno we'll see if its the turbo kits or the throttle body.

I really dropped the ball when I ordered this with the .64, but at that time, I was planning to put it on a stock 94 block and only run 12psi or so. For that purpose, this turbo would have been great. Somewhere done the line, I decided I wanted to put my 2.0L in there and make my daily NA. Parts were already ordered when i changed my mind on engines and now I get to order more. For the 2.0L, there is no excuse why I shouldn't have gone with a 2871.

I will be putting the .86 housing on in December or January, so we will see then.

You might be happy with a turbo like mine on the built motor. I'd try both, or just take mine for a spin and decide.

You still have the .86 2860rs? I think the new housing will get this to where it needs to be and then i will decide if a 2871 is needed. Probably not, but we will see.

FWIW I am happy with my 2871, albeit a 0.64 A/R.