Intake Manifold Final Flow Stages - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 12-13-2008, 12:33 PM   #1
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,583
Total Cats: 8
Default Intake Manifold Final Flow Stages

Here is the design as it stands right now. I just havenít had time to completely finish the small stuff. Iíve ran a huge number of fluid flow simulations optimizing those runners, and that slowed me down. The whole assembly is going to end up weighing less than 3 pounds, and it really flows. Iíve cut the stock head open and mapped the ports with a computer measurement machine and then ran the analysis with the runner on the ports. That away I know exactly what is going to work close to best. The last stage is just FDR prototypes and actually doing the flow testing to tweak it a little more.

The final design will have options for sequential injection where you put the injectors right out at the mouth of the trumpets and you keep the injectors in the head. This helps atomization and adds a couple horsepower up top. There where you see the composite coming up to a shape thatís where either a filter cage goes or the rest of the plenum sits for the turbo guys. The throttle plates are already ďstabbedĒ and as thin as what is safe for optimum flow. Itís a great unit, and in the future I intend on adding a muti-stage element where rotary valves move and redirect airflow to different runners. From what Iíve calculated it could mean another 30 ft lbs of torque down in the 2000-4000 region which would really help light off a meaty turbo. This would be a bolt on accessory to the current design so there are lots of options available for your wallet size.

Total cost for the packages havenít been worked out yet, but for the model with the filter system I would say less than 600, for the plenum version less than 750, multi stage less than a 1200 (it requires servos and electronics and a lot more composite so it is fairly expensive. ) The increase in horsepower from 4000-7000 should be about an average of about 20hp on a stock engine, but who knows until we stick it on the dyno.
Attached Thumbnails
Intake Manifold Final Flow Stages-intake.jpg  
TravisR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2008, 12:53 PM   #2
Elite Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Freehold, NJ
Posts: 1,577
Total Cats: -2
Default

so i'm guessing that its gonna be whole and the pictures is a cutaway to show the inside? and is it gonna be carbon fiber like the picture shows?
disturbedfan121 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2008, 01:04 PM   #3
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,583
Total Cats: 8
Default

Yea it will be CF, its not a cutaway, its just what you bolt to that point. You have the staged injector "plate" that mounts the injectors in the plenum, and then you could have either a filter section for running N/A or a plenum section for running forced induction.
TravisR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2008, 01:05 PM   #4
y8s
2 Props,3 Dildos,& 1 Cat
iTrader: (8)
 
y8s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fake Virginia
Posts: 19,038
Total Cats: 406
Default

awesome. so your flow models show that attached trumpets have better flow profiles than detached (in the plenum)?
y8s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2008, 01:11 PM   #5
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,583
Total Cats: 8
Default

Well thats actually a atleast a little bit of a myth. I think alot of people associate the trumpets with more airflow, but in reality they are about even, its all about the radius on the mouth and the taper of the port. I've got alot of velocity stack research papers that I modeled this design after, and almost all of them commented that stacks in the plenum gave with .1 percent flow plus or minus of the entry ways being on the wall.

I actaully have a research paper made for the 1.8L escort motor that did a comparision of different types of trumpets and their best design was a design on the wall of the plenum which I borrowed and then messed with a little bit. That research had 12 different designs with different tapers, and radiuses. I believe that part of the design is pretty solid. What I'm working with now is the few percent thats left in the entry angle to the port. The engine could benifit from plus or minus a degree even though that wouldn't be "straight" into the port. So I'm having plastic models made to flow bench the difference.
TravisR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2008, 01:41 PM   #6
y8s
2 Props,3 Dildos,& 1 Cat
iTrader: (8)
 
y8s's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Fake Virginia
Posts: 19,038
Total Cats: 406
Default

good to see that you're doing the research and testing. and for that price, it's pretty amazing.

next I'm curious about the differences in port shapes from the 94 to the 99 and if the entry angle will have to change between motors.

y8s is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2008, 01:48 PM   #7
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,583
Total Cats: 8
Default

It will probably be almost a total redesign for the newer 1.8L. I will be able to keep the plenum, but runner entry, throttle plate, and intake angle will have to change. I also used alot of analytical programs to get the length of the runner tuned where I wanted it, and that will all change based on port flow and what not. So if the demand is there I'll make another one.

Right after I get the final numbers for this comes the camshaft as thats all the cam designer needs to finish up for me. That will make it a tuned system, for even bigger numbers.
TravisR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2008, 02:36 PM   #8
Elite Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Freehold, NJ
Posts: 1,577
Total Cats: -2
Default

ok i may be a little slow but what you've basically did was make a set of ITB's that you can attach an adapter plate and then use it for boosted motors?
disturbedfan121 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2008, 03:39 PM   #9
Elite Member
iTrader: (5)
 
akaryrye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Central California
Posts: 2,526
Total Cats: 0
Default

There aren't any throttle bodies on that, so its not ITB's
akaryrye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2008, 04:36 PM   #10
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,583
Total Cats: 8
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by akaryrye View Post
There aren't any throttle bodies on that, so its not ITB's
The throttles I designed myself they set right up next to the head. You can see the throttle shaft sticking out the side, but I haven't built the torsion spring or mechanism that bolts to the factory piece yet. This is how its done is a professional race engine because you make turbulence converting from a round throttle to an ovalized hole for the port. Its expensive, because the throttle companies can't make a 32 mm throttle bore that fits all motors. The throttle in this case is the exact shape of the port, so its better, and I don't intend on making manifolds for a thousand different cars, so its not a big deal to me.

So basically I went and designed the throttles, the runners, the flange plate, the plenum(not shown), and runner entry along with runner shape specifically for this engine, and for the power band of 4000-8000 R.P.M. So everything has been designed and manufactured from the ground up for this engine and that specific power band. It doesn't get much better then that. These setups are boost limited to 2 Bar, if you are pumping more then that, I have to redesign things because the throttle plates are really under one hell of a load at that point. It is also designed so that you can still run a normal throttle too. Its designed to fit what you want. Lots of adapter plates and and other things that you can bolt on or remove.
TravisR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2008, 10:25 PM   #11
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Head Wound City, CT
Posts: 215
Total Cats: 0
Default

Oh wow, I totally misunderstood- I had thought these were going to utilize AE111 throttle bodies like it says on your site. This is even better.
MattEGTR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2008, 11:31 PM   #12
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,796
Total Cats: 247
Default

Sweet! Make one like that for a 99' and I'll buy one.
patsmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2008, 12:00 AM   #13
Elite Member
iTrader: (5)
 
akaryrye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Central California
Posts: 2,526
Total Cats: 0
Default

thanks for the explanation travis, i guess i didnt look closely enough and read through all the posts closely enough.
akaryrye is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2008, 12:24 AM   #14
Elite Member
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Freehold, NJ
Posts: 1,577
Total Cats: -2
Default

ah, i see says the blind man. do you have any pictures of what the plenum is going to look like. you know when its all fully assembled?
disturbedfan121 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2008, 12:42 AM   #15
Junior Member
iTrader: (7)
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Overland Park, KS
Posts: 395
Total Cats: 6
Default

Travis, the type of person to whom this intake solution would most appeal has probably already invested in 99+ head (assuming they don't own a 99+ Miata).

I would happily fork over the cash for a 99+ turbo version.
MazDilla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2008, 01:07 AM   #16
Elite Member
iTrader: (15)
 
patsmx5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 8,796
Total Cats: 247
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MazDilla View Post
Travis, the type of person to whom this intake solution would most appeal has probably already invested in 99+ head (assuming they don't own a 99+ Miata).

I would happily fork over the cash for a 99+ turbo version.
Yeah no kidding. I'm really surprised he would make one around a 94-97 head before doing a 99' head. Anyone who would drop that much coin on an intake manifold would have bought a 99' head a long time ago. Kinda like building a forged ring and pinion set for a 6" rear end. It was used for 4 years, it sucked, and anyone who's putting any time/money into their diff is starting with a 7".
patsmx5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2008, 01:17 AM   #17
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (9)
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 1,583
Total Cats: 8
Default

Its not like everyone is as hardcore as you guys. There is definitely a market for both, and I do enjoy the work.

I don't want to let everything out yet with the plenum. I'm going to wait until I get down to the week or so before I actually mold the part, because it could change based on my fit prototype, or I might feel like working on things a bit more.

By the way, the whole thing is o-ring sealed. No more gaskets!
TravisR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2008, 06:58 AM   #18
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (31)
 
Savington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Posts: 14,359
Total Cats: 1,323
Default

******* hell, Travis. That's badass.
Savington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2008, 09:43 AM   #19
Elite Member
iTrader: (22)
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Sunny Spanish speaking Non US Caribbean
Posts: 3,257
Total Cats: 3
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
Its not like everyone is as hardcore as you guys. There is definitely a market for both, and I do enjoy the work.

I don't want to let everything out yet with the plenum. I'm going to wait until I get down to the week or so before I actually mold the part, because it could change based on my fit prototype, or I might feel like working on things a bit more.

By the way, the whole thing is o-ring sealed. No more gaskets!
+1. I own a 96 and had some port and polish done to my 96 head but I always thought I'd rather wait for something like this to come along before buying a 99 head.

I had always considered buying Begi's intake manifold before buying another head. And I was right; I'd rather spend my money on this than a 99 head anytime.

Give me an ETA so I can start saving money!

You rock!
Rafa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2008, 08:40 PM   #20
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (3)
 
emilio700's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 5,310
Total Cats: 1,333
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
Its not like everyone is as hardcore as you guys. There is definitely a market for both, and I do enjoy the work.
Mad engineering skills. Flawed marketing. Only a guy who is hardcore is going to drop a grand on a CNC billet and dry carbon fiber manifold for any Miata. That user already has a BP4W or BP6D head. Seriously, if this is for your car first and then whoever else wants one, stop. Go buy a BP4W or BP6D head, don't bother touching it in any way, swap any valve or springs you already have over and build that manifold.

The future of any aftermarket stuff for Miata engine top end lies in the BP6D head. Go price a few complete 99-00 and 01-05 motors.

Which cost the least?
Which has the lowest miles?
Which has the largets thrust bearings?
Which has the largest oil pump volume?
Which has bead blasted piston crowns from the factory?
Whic has variable vale timing?
Which as a main bearing saddle support plate?
Which has .5 more CR? (nice for N/A of course)
Which has .049 more intake lift?

Build my N/A manifold dammit!
emilio700 is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Project Gemini - Turbo Civic on the Cheap Full_Tilt_Boogie Build Threads 57 07-19-2017 05:11 PM
Changing from 460cc to flow force 610cc in diypnp 90 Turbo MEGAsquirt 19 10-19-2015 04:23 PM
Expected intake temps on the track? tazswing Race Prep 20 10-03-2015 12:04 PM
Moroso Air Oil Separator Catch Can Aroundcorner Miata parts for sale/trade 2 10-01-2015 04:20 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:55 PM.