FE3 Swap
 

Well I started my swap the other week but things were slow so I didnt feel like posting anything just yet.

For now all you get is this pic via shitty Iphone camera:

Attachment 198176

I'll add more later as I have a final in an hour.

-Dean

Ok one more pic for now, presenting the shortest fucking oil pan ever made! (half complete atm)

Attachment 198175

Awesome.

Fuck finals.

+1 :vash:

you have ray charles weld your oil pan? :P

Stoked to see this come together!

:fawk:

The outside welds will be ground smooth, then everything plasted and powdercoated, should look half decent then lol.

so in reality how much "modifying" is required to install this motor?? you have a to-do list at all??

that is sexy awesome

Intake manifold
Space subframe
Motor mounts
Customize oil pan
Transmission adapter trickery

I wish I would have known about these engines before I ordered all my 1.6 parts. Good luck with the build

For us non morons, what the eff is an FE3 motor and why do we like it?

Short and sweet:
Its the mazda version of the 4g63 (in terms of beefiness)

Stock shortblock that can handle 400hp reliably? Yes please.

4G63s have handled around 600Hp on stock internals. Had to rep for old platform ;)

But yeah, a 400WHP Miata on a junkyard shortblock is sorta of the best thing ever.

Windage tray and baffles in one FTW, great stuff OP.

Eh?

more pics now damint!

what cars did this motor come from in the states? kia? i read up on what cars it came in overseas...curious bout here.

Kia Sportage motor, every where for ~$500-700 bucks.

Larger diameter crank and rod bearing journals, head flows like the '99 BP head, and they've actually been pushed to 500-600whp stock.

If you want to forgo a tranny adapter right now you can mate the B2000 bellhousing to a Miata 5spd, just stay under 250whp. The motor mounts are 6 holes in a 1/2" steel plate, and I think mr2cars1cup got away without shimming the subframe by shaving the hood bracing.

This leaves just a few hard parts:

-Custom/Hybrid aluminum intake mani
-Fit optical Miata CAS to distributor setup on FE3 or make custom crank trigger
-clutch/flywheel/PP setup

I had a local guy I found on CL that was goingto sell me an FE3, with both stock manifolds (intake flange useful, and stock exhaust is a nice, but heavy, piece that points in the right direction to go n/a in a miata until turbo setup ironed out), AND a B2000 tranny for $750. I soooo should have taken the plunge.

yeah you should have!

thanks for the info.....this could be a possible option for me one day.

I want to go there. :D On a LINK. :laugh:

I'm going to throw up a build thread since the new chassis will have the FE3 driveline in it this year. :giggle:

Oh- and I did shim for the sake of getting the car on the road and not dropping the subframe. BUT if "you" remember that Datsun truck with the BP swap- he did a great job of trimming and reinforcing the crossover part of the subframe to gain a good amount of clearance. I think that's all that needs to be done to get the engine under the hood w/o shimming using a similar oil pan depth as above. You'd just need to adjust the motor mounts by "that" about to drop the engine.

can i come help?

i want to get some in person experiences with it if i ever deiced to do this swap.

YESuCAN. First fix ur diff. ;)

i gotta buy one :cry: then if i can afford 3.63 R&P then that what will happen :D

Subscribed to this...

I'm going to try everything I can in order to NOT shim the subframe on this project. The oil pan is already shorter than Rob's by 3/4" and I'll be doing some completely custom motor mounts to drop it as much as possible.

The goal with this motor/car this year is actually driveablility/trackability.

I didn't get to nearly enough track days last year so I'm holding off the Holset for this year and I'll be running a set of 1000 GSXR itbs coupled to the stock lower intake mani (ported) and a custom long tube header with ridculous primaries. The goal is to make enough power to not get beat by the wifes b16 civic lol

Oh ya and a 4.78 final drive.

The 6 speed is mounted to the motor but I wont be showing how until I get my flywheel here and everything actually fits like it should. Don't need false information floating around teh intrawebs.

The cas is easy compared to the rest of the stuff that needs to be done, pull out the slotted wheel, drill a couple holes, slap it back in, in the proper orientation of course.

Water inlet for the pump needs to be fabbed up as the fe3 one is different.

Like mentioned the oil pan needs some work, need to find a Kia unit if you go with a jdm motor as I did.

Also you'll want the FE3 cams, my motor came with a FEAP/FE3 cam arrangement which is being replaced with another FE3 kia intake cam. And the Kia exhaust cam wont drive the CAS unit so you need a jdm mazda cam if you wanna run the CAS.

Coolant reroute, use an mx6 thermo housing.

Anyways we'll see how "worth it" it really is when I get it all together and dyno it, hopefully the gear ratios will compensate for the extreme lack of power I'm predicting lol.


-Dean

Can't wait to the see the 6 spd "mate up"... if it's real. ;)
And IRTBs? Did you see this?

Sounds good to me. :D

^^ Yup saw that one before, but I'll be running the itb's unrestricted lol

Can't wait, 4.7 rear, 9lbs flywheel, itbs, FE3 cams, 6 speed, long tube header, should be fun and loud if nothing else lol

I ditched my thoughts of doing an FE3 swap because I didn't want to get stuck with a 5sp so i'm really interested to see how you dealt with this.

Edit: also if you wouldn't mind posting up a price list of what you ended up with in the end.

^ Full details on the 6 speed once I can confirm it will work and not explode the trans.

Price is all relative to how well/nice you want the install to look. Cheapest way possible, this swap can be done for engine price plus a couple hundred for odds and ends. Nothing major other than welding some things together is really required.

Ya I realize that. I'm just trying to keep some mental notes of what these engines are going for plus the little stuff that is needed. I'm not scared of the fabrication at all. I'm curious to see how you accomplish this without spacing the subframe and still close the hood.

are you using the miata 6 speed?

Are you concerned with the low profile oil pan as far as oil starvation?

Also, take some more damn pictures before you get this thing completely in the car! :fawk: I have a KIA block in my garage, still might go this route.. especially curious to see what power you can make NA (you have programmable ECU?)

Also, any chance you did some weight comparisons?? Like to know how accurate the 50 lb estimates I've heard thrown around are.

Tim

I'd say my swap was done as cheaply as possible - at the time since. The engine was $900, bell housing $75, 626 flywheel $45, sportage pan $38, and $300 to make the hybrid intake manifold. The rest of the stuff was done using scrap metal/parts.

I drove mine around without the turbo, blowing through the turbine housing and the torque was great. Pretty much choked around 5500rpm though.

All that? Meaning oil sourcing? The sump where the pickup sits is deep. Apply a similar baffle to the BP and all is good. Add an external cooler and it's better.

BP to FEdohc weight comparisons were made based on scale numbers- but two different scales. The difference similarly dressed is more like 65lbs.

Editted my message.. "all that" did sound pretty teenage kid didn't it. :)

65 lbs is tons.. so really only makes sense if one is going to do the neccessary upgrades to run 300 whp+ (otherwise why not save 65 lbs and boost a 1.8 BP?). I guess 65 lbs might be worth it for the cost savings over a similarly reliable BP at 250 whp (forged pistons/rods which aren't needed for FE3).

I guess I'm just bummed about the weight difference.. as far as a track car is concerned.

Tim

I am kinda worried about oil capacity but Im still working on the pan so once it's finished I'll know what the capacity will be.

Pics will come with progress, I'm writing finals all week then I have my boilers branch exam Monday so until that's done the car is on hold.

Depends on who you are- to me 65lbs is nothing for a street car. Even as a track toy it's not a significant enough of deficit to matter when you consider where the car starts as a platform compared to others. The apply typical mods/adjustments to address the weight change. In nearly all cases the driver is going to leave far more time on the table than what a 65lbs weight increase is going to cost.

Dean if you run an external cooler, there won't be oil capacity issues. My pan held over 4.5 qts - that was with about 1/2" of oil sitting in the shallow part and those stupid kickouts I added (which probably only added .25 quart). My tiny external cooler and lines added another .75qt.

Fair enough on the weight gain, still a consideration.

Dean, can you confirm that the KIA FE3's have the 'good' cams (both on intake and exhaust)? I've been having some difficulties tracking down that information.

Tim

Rob, I completely agree that 65lbs is going to be insignificant on either a track or street car.

My 1.8 rearend added weight, as does my butterfly brace, half cage ect ect

The benefit of the engine is straight up reliablility.

Thanks for the heads up Rob, my pan is shorter than yours but Ill be making it slightly longer and alittle wider so it should be fine.

Did you have to move your swaybar or not? I know you did but could you have gotten by without moving it?

Kia has the good FE3 intake and a shitty KL03 or somethig exhaust, definately not as good as the FE3 cam. IMO it's worth it to source the jdm Mazda FE3, 700$ online is fuck all for a motor. Then you have the good exhaust cam, slightly higher compression, ability to run the CAS and the intake is easily cut for itbs.

Good points really, and then once you have the Mazda FE3 head and such, you could pick up the Kia motors cheap when it's time for a fresh bottom end.

Attachment 198104
Attachment 198105
Attachment 198106

Couple shots of my buddies working on the itbs. Skill saw put to good use lol, I'll get a picture of them now all sandblasted and ready for porting.

And this is what your trying to deal with by shortening the oil pan ect.
Attachment 198107

The hood line is alittle higher than the bare fender line, and that pic is the oem Kia oilpan sitting on the subframe, nothing modified.

Agreed, probably the best way to go.. but I already have a KIA FE3 in the garage that I bought for $80 (needs the crank bolt threads welded). So I will just have a bit more hassle (though I already have the right oil pan).

I'll be running a crank trigger with MS when the time comes I imagine, so no concern there. I will have a problem with the stupid KIA 8 bolt flywheel.. probably have to get a custom lightweight one (probably not much more than a standard lightweight one).

Tim

Update!

Any way you can keep the oil pan stock with the after market tube cross member?

I doubt a tubular front cross member will help much if any thats why I decided not to bother with making one. The problem is the dam steering rack, it is what needs to be moved or something to allow better pan fitment. Stock oil pan as in the Kia pan right? B/c the jdm stock pan is fwd and will def not fit.

Anyways, the oil pan after closer inspection was all twisted to hell, surprise surprise after Ray Charles got done welding it lol. So I cut it apart and rewelded it "properly" and it fits perfectly. Good thing I did too as the pick-up tube wasn't going to fit with the current pan depth so I increased it about .125" then rounded out a few spots with the ball peen hammer. Its almost done, ran out of welding wire with about 6" of welds left and had to leave for work (for a week). I'm home tomorrow and will finish the pan and pick-up tube and get started on the motor mounts immediately after.

The motor and tranny are mounted up.

I didn't even need an adapter plate....Ya thats right the 6 speed mounts to the FE with very alittle work. Throw-out bearing fork had to be modified to fit around the clutch as the flywheel and clutch assembly sit slightly further into the bell housing than they do on a BP. Nothing to fancy just notched it and bent it alittle then welded it back together.

CAS mods are done.

ITBS are awaiting couplers that should be here by now. Still need to fill in the extra holes in the throttle bodies and tap a few for fittings. Haven't decided what to use to fill the holes in, probably just JB weld???

4.778 gears arrived, they will go in after the car is running.

I also need to mod my mspnp for vtps, I'll probably get someone alittle more skilled with a soildering iron to do that one.

wait! so a FE3 and a miata 6-speed go hand in hand? pics of modified fork?

In for 6speed-to-FE block details.

seriously. How do you post a tease like that without even a pic...

dude seriously, its been a few days since your update, where are the fuckin picks. dont make me come ---- punt you......

In for the picture I want to see!

Last log-in was nearly a week ago. Darn.

The fact that this bolts right to a 6 speed makes this pretty interesting. Its an advantage over a V8 swap.

How could the 6 speed bolt up, yet with the 5 speed you need a different bell housing to adapt it?

Perhaps im confused. In for results.

Haha sorry guys, I'm in the middle of an air weapons range and can't use my phone, I messaged the pics to another guy in the process of doing a FE3 swap on the east coast so unless he wants to post them you'll have to wait until Tuesday when I get home. I'm usually not on the forum when I'm working on the car, I also only have dial-up at home so pics are coming from the iphone.

The motor is in and the hood closes WITHOUT any shims or hood bracing cut outs (although its only about 1mm clearance so the hood bracing will come out but no shims necessary). Oil pan sits above the steering rack by about .125"-.25" (yes there is an intentional slope in the pan from side to side) but it is very shallow on the front end, and capacity of the sump in approx 3.5L, not ideal, but I'm not about to change it now.

The motor and trans are not easy to swap in bolted together, the poor firewall took some abuse as I was doing it solo (as per usual)..

Motor mounts just need a couple minutes of welding and they will be complete.

The sway bar is plenty far enough away from the crank pulley to not need any mods either.

How ya about the 6 speed bolting up, its not like it just bolts on without any modifications, some tampering is definately involved, although its not really very difficult.

Again sorry to leave you guys hanging in suspense

-Dean

lol the fork I just marked where it was contacting the pressure plate, made some pie cuts on either side just before the mark, bent the fork back, installed it to check clearance, pulled it back out and welded it back up. Real simple stuff there.

Also had to make sure it was in the middle of the hole in the bellhousing to facilitate enough movement to dissengage the clutch. Got lucky the first time and it was dead center.

Entire process maybe took 20min

Still waiting patiently for the 6spd bolt up details/photos. ;)

Sounds like our engines sit about the same. My hood hood would shut w/o the shims if it weren't for the sportage/1.6 intake manifold (hump after the tb flange) - which sits significantly higher that the cam sprockets/tbelt. That said, 1mm won't be enough to keep your tbelt from hitting the hood at high rpm. If you've ever seen a tbelt at high rpm on a dyno, you'd be amazed at the amount of slack (and amazed that a CAS triggered spark works at all).
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...wap/hood6s.jpg
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...wap/hood3s.jpg

well im the guy on the east coast dean talked about doing an fe3 swap as well, and ive been given the ok to upload the pics he sent me.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._1364081_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._6893386_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._4580999_n.jpg

heres the one you have been waiting for, a goregous motor mount, light weight flywheel tucked inside a 6spd tranny :) even im jelous haha

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._2368047_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._4948921_n.jpg


and i personally just got my fe3 to start on july first, a few crappy phone pics. need to get a top mount 1.8 turbo manifold, ms, clutch, exhaust, ic. and much more.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._1147446_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._6949949_n.jpg

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._7733762_n.jpg

hope you enjoyed the pics

Nice work on the mount

Not me! I'm waiting for the one that shows the backside of the FE block and the six speed bolted up to it. :D

lol I know what you want Rob, but your not going to see anything interesting in that pic either.

No secret, the holes from the F block line right up with the 6 speed, punch and drill some holes through the bellhousing and your done. A monkey could get that tranny on that block with a drill and a center punch, no one gave it any effort before thats all.


-Dean

we also wanted pics of the modifications to the clutch fork....