Nothing to see here, just project Sisyphus, move along - Page 46 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Build Threads Building a motor? Post the progress here.

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-03-2015, 07:12 PM   #901
Elite Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Mobius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 3,124
Total Cats: 257
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
Hopefully installing this little gear isn't a huge pain in the ***.
INB4 colorectal surgery
Mobius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2015, 07:15 PM   #902
Destroyer of Inconel
Thread Starter
iTrader: (37)
 
EO2K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In ur driveway, abusin' ur WPA
Posts: 9,597
Total Cats: 936
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffbucc View Post
You shouldn't have any problems with it.
Have we met?
EO2K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 12:02 AM   #903
Elite Member
 
codrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,801
Total Cats: 337
Default

The VSS really is trivial to install, even when the tranny is in the car. It's literally one bolt.

--Ian
codrus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 12:46 AM   #904
Destroyer of Inconel
Thread Starter
iTrader: (37)
 
EO2K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In ur driveway, abusin' ur WPA
Posts: 9,597
Total Cats: 936
Default

Oh yeah, its cake. I just hate dumping trans lube for something silly like this.

Also, I feel like I ordered the wrong gear. Something tells me this one will work for an NA mechanical sender and not an NB electronic one. Oh well, it was $14.
EO2K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 02:49 AM   #905
Elite Member
 
codrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,801
Total Cats: 337
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
Oh yeah, its cake. I just hate dumping trans lube for something silly like this.

Also, I feel like I ordered the wrong gear. Something tells me this one will work for an NA mechanical sender and not an NB electronic one. Oh well, it was $14.
I'm pretty sure you can swap the VSS without draining all the oil out? Jack the back end up in the air, or something like that?

Yes, $14 is the NA mechanical gear, the electronic VSS for the NB is more like $120. Alternately, you can use an Arduino and a bit of code to convert the 3.9 or whatever sender signal you have now into a 3.6 one.

--Ian
codrus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 03:23 AM   #906
Supporting Vendor
iTrader: (10)
 
Reverant's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Athens, Greece
Posts: 5,430
Total Cats: 195
Default

That's not exactly doable with the VR sensor.
Reverant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 11:26 AM   #907
Destroyer of Inconel
Thread Starter
iTrader: (37)
 
EO2K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In ur driveway, abusin' ur WPA
Posts: 9,597
Total Cats: 936
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by codrus View Post
Yes, $14 is the NA mechanical gear, the electronic VSS for the NB is more like $120.
Yeah, I think I'm just boned if I want the correct VSS. I'll probably post up a WTB and see if one of the euro or aussie bros will sell me one. The NA drive one will probably end up in the classifieds shortly.
EO2K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 11:39 AM   #908
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 143
Total Cats: 8
Default

I'm in for a challenge. It's going to an MS3 right? Can it live with a square wave instead of the variable reluctance signal?

Should be a pretty simple circuit (I hope). We'll add this with the to the traction control circuit.
PatCleary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 11:42 AM   #909
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
iTrader: (5)
 
aidandj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 17,929
Total Cats: 1,440
Default

All you need to do is adjust the MS3 settings for whatever speed sensor you have. Then get one of the speedo change boxes.
aidandj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 11:48 AM   #910
Destroyer of Inconel
Thread Starter
iTrader: (37)
 
EO2K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In ur driveway, abusin' ur WPA
Posts: 9,597
Total Cats: 936
Default

Its this madness:
Quote:
Originally Posted by scenturion View Post
I thought it was worth bumping this thread to post a follow up.
I was curious about the Vehicle Speed Sensor [VSS] output and the speedometer speed output so I put the car on the lift and attached an oscilloscope to the back of the instrument cluster.



I attached CH1 to the output for the VSS, which are pins 2M and 1M.
I attached CH2 to the output of the cluster speedo signal, which is 2L and used the cluster ground 3J.

Here's what I saw:

10mph


20mph


As you can see, the VSS on CH1 is a variable reluctance [VR] sensor that outputs an ugly 0-centered sawtooth-esque signal. Both the frequency and amplitude of the signal depends on the speed, as is common with a VR sensor. I wouldn't feed this into anything expecting a logic-level signal without something like a MAX9924 in front of it. At high speeds I'd bet it would output north of +50V/-50V.

However, the speed output signal is a nice 5V square wave at half the frequency of the VSS, perfect for triggering just about anything.

Another question I had was the confusion between how many pulses per mile various sensors output and the PCM expected. Online it was reported at both 8000 and 4000 pulses per mile, but people were confusing the various signals and outputs.

At ~10mph, the frequency of the speed output signal is 9.76Hz. This gives 3513 pulses/mile. I suspect its actually closer to 4000 pulses/mile but the low end of the speedo is poorly scaled.

At ~20mph, the frequency of the speed output signal is 22.32Hz. This comes out to 4014 pulses, per mile, so exactly what I had expected.

Since this is half the frequency of the VSS, the instrument cluster expects the VSS output to be 8000 pulses/mile. The VSS goes directly to the cluster and no other components interact with it.
The instrument cluster modifies the dirty VSS signal and outputs a square wave at 4000 pulses/mile that the PCM, Cruise control module, and Bose head unit can read.

Hope this helps someone else!
Unless Reverant advises me otherwise, I'm probably going to use one of these for the front wheel sensor input when I get around to implementing traction control:

Dual VR Conditioner Board V2.1


Its cheap, easy and tiny
EO2K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 11:55 AM   #911
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 143
Total Cats: 8
Default

Ahh, someone already built it, thank you. Wish those VSS sensors weren't so damn expensive, I really want one to run the speed signal to the data system, the existing is sketchy, although it's stopped flaking out when I step on the gas.

And yes, I think you can install without dumping the gearbox oil. Even filled I don't know that the fluid line is up as high as the sender. Even if it is, you have to lift the passengers side to get to it, which should make that the highest point and leak free(ish).
PatCleary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 12:04 PM   #912
FAB
Fab9Tuning.com
iTrader: (4)
 
FAB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 936
Total Cats: 394
Default

Maybe I'm late to the conversation but why not use a hall sensor on your wheel hub and calibrate the MS3 accordingly? I used to sell the Haltech red sensor to this company building these little GSXR powered race cars a couple of years back. In fact I'm now using one as my crank position sensor.
FAB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 12:41 PM   #913
Destroyer of Inconel
Thread Starter
iTrader: (37)
 
EO2K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In ur driveway, abusin' ur WPA
Posts: 9,597
Total Cats: 936
Default

Because I'm not smart?

Can we build some sort of electronic trickery to make the speedometer read correctly? Probably, but what happens when it stops working and I'm 240 miles from home at Thunderhill? (Yes, I know speedo is not critical)

Can I use some other sensors for crank and cam signal pickup? Sure, but now I have to mod my wiring harness to supply them power or make them work or whatever. More points of failure and more permanent modification.

Could I have built an MS? Yes, probably but I chose to buy one from Rev because his units just work and I won't have to pull out what's left of my hair trying to troubleshoot the damn thing.

Could I have built my own motor? I believe I could have done it, but I decided to pay someone for expertise so I have a better chance of not ruining a grand worth of forged hardware.

Could I conceivably build my own manifolds? They would look worse than Leafys but yes, I could probably do it but ARTech makes pretty things so I paid him.

The more custom your setup becomes, the fewer people can help you troubleshoot it. I learned an incredibly valuable lesson when my ignition system went out at Thunderhill back in 2012 and I had to spend 5 hours in a AAA flatbed with an insane tow truck driver on the way home. Whenever possible, I prefer to use as many stock things as possible because stock things tend to just work. Then when they don't work its much easier to roll into a FLAPS and get (or order) another CPK rather than try to go hunt down some obscure sensor. I could also conceivably bum one off a local so I could get home. This is why I hoard stock parts and only modify things that are modular or easily swappable/replaceable.

My car also has to be able to be returned to stock when the time comes. I don't think you guys who live in other areas realize how much of a restriction this actually is. As it sits currently, I can put my car back to stock in a matter of hours. Once the built motor goes it, its more like a weekend but it can still be done. I need as few permanent modification as possible.
EO2K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 01:15 PM   #914
FAB
Fab9Tuning.com
iTrader: (4)
 
FAB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 936
Total Cats: 394
Default

Good lord that's a reply.

If it's as simple as buying something that Rev produces, I support that completely. I thought there was a more elaborate and complicated solution in the works here.
FAB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 01:32 PM   #915
Destroyer of Inconel
Thread Starter
iTrader: (37)
 
EO2K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In ur driveway, abusin' ur WPA
Posts: 9,597
Total Cats: 936
Default

Actually, I went a little insane with that response, please to be forgiving

For the front wheel speed, I've got an NB ABS hub, sensor and complete spindle assembly that will be going in the car. We have a lot of guys who can fabricate things on this board so going custom is a pretty common solution, but its not something I want to deal with. The stock ABS parts fit because they are designed to fit so I don't have to reinvent the wheel or fabricate a bunch of insanity. The little JBPerf board will take the signal from the stock ABS sensor and turn it into something (0-5v square) the MS3 can read. Its already been implemented by a bunch of folks so the hard part is done. Easy peasy!

Nothing I'm doing is new or unique. My entire build is just taking things I've seen other people do and reconbobulating them in a way that I like
EO2K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 06:01 PM   #916
SADFab Destructive Testing Engineer
iTrader: (5)
 
aidandj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Beaverton, USA
Posts: 17,929
Total Cats: 1,440
Default

Can you just use any universal speedo modifier. Doesn't scenturion have one he uses for his JDM clusters. For VSS just adjust the pulses per mile accordingly.
aidandj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 07:50 PM   #917
Destroyer of Inconel
Thread Starter
iTrader: (37)
 
EO2K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In ur driveway, abusin' ur WPA
Posts: 9,597
Total Cats: 936
Default

One of our fellow users from The Great White North is helping a brother out, so speedo sender should be resolved shortly
EO2K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2015, 10:07 PM   #918
Junior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Kamloops B.C.
Posts: 203
Total Cats: 24
Default

Not so white here now , was able to get out and experience some boost again this afternoon . Keep forgetting how fast the Miata is , especially when it's only +4*c . And your welecome , I'll get that shipped out this weekend. My wife wishes I'd clean out some of my other precious spare.....
fredb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2015, 01:19 AM   #919
Destroyer of Inconel
Thread Starter
iTrader: (37)
 
EO2K's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In ur driveway, abusin' ur WPA
Posts: 9,597
Total Cats: 936
Default

Thanks Fred! I've recently started clearing out LOTS of stuff I'm not using so I feel you there. It kinda gets to be fun after a bit. Also, the tracking number hasn't gone live yet, but Ill check back on it in the AM.

On a related note, the diff is IN! Zero drama with removal or installation and now its bathed in SVG 75W-90. I'd imagine my 4.1 torsen will eventually find a home in the Exocet. Something I didn't notice until Gesso pointed it out was how much beefier the 3.63 pinion is when compared to the 4.1 pinion, and how thin the 3.63 ring is compared to the 4.1 ring. I mean, it makes perfect sense but I wasn't expecting it to be so dramatic. Also, you wouldn't necessarily expect it but dropping 370+RPM from 65+MPH cruise really makes a difference in interior noise. We'll see what kind of effect it has on gas mileage here in the future.

The 3.63 was definitely an all around good decision
EO2K is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-09-2015, 01:57 AM   #920
Elite Member
 
codrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,801
Total Cats: 337
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by EO2K View Post
The 3.63 was definitely an all around good decision
Going from a 6-speed + 3.9 to a 6-speed + 3.636 changed the car from stupidly-close gearing to something reasonable to drive. I can't even imagine how bad it would have been with 6-speed + 4.1.

--Ian
codrus is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Slowest Miata in Tampa Build vtbandit Build Threads 22 10-02-2017 08:33 PM
3d scanned miata parts- interest check asmasm General Miata Chat 71 09-27-2017 10:47 AM
Help me test MS3 firmware! Win stuff! Ben MEGAsquirt 17 01-20-2017 05:29 PM
Noob from Arizona, Hi Richard here! Richard346 Meet and Greet 11 12-16-2016 04:48 PM
Move to Florida. Buy Miata vtbandit Meet and Greet 7 12-15-2016 08:33 PM


Tags
begi isn't helping, buttsex, doubt, efr=tits man, failure is an option, iono mang, longing, manifold mastectomy, moist b-hole, offending tits, procrastination, silent but deadly, tartar sauce massage oil, uncertainty, yearning

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:31 AM.