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Old 04-20-2016, 05:51 AM   #1
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Hello,

My name is Boy. I'm from The Netherlands and live nearby Gouda.
First of all sorry for my poor english.

I'm planning to build a 300+ hp engine for street use.

i drive a mk1 '90 miata with 103k mile.

i have a mk2.5 '03 engine with 85k m i want to use for the build.

my plan to use:

-mk 2.5 engine with/without vvt
-GT2560R
-Stand alone ecu
-Forged Pistons low compression
-Forged Rods
-FPR
-Intercooler
-Coollant Re-route
-Full 3" exhaust
-Bosch EV injectors 610 cc or more
-Gaspump fuel, standard octane is 95 or 98

probley missing things but that is my plan.

is it possible or not?

thanks,

Boy

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Old 04-20-2016, 08:44 AM   #2
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Is it possible to get injured on an Alpine Slide?
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Old 04-20-2016, 09:10 AM   #3
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so far so good.
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Old 04-20-2016, 09:51 AM   #4
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You need a 7" rearend from a 94-05 miata and 6 speed transmission would be a good idea. 300hp is about the limits of your turbo as well so if you're going for much "+" above that then probably add a bigger turbo and bigger injectors to the list too.
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Old 04-20-2016, 09:53 AM   #5
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EFR for the turbo, and ID1000's for injectors.
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Old 04-20-2016, 10:32 AM   #6
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anything is possible
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Old 04-20-2016, 10:48 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdexta View Post
You need a 7" rearend from a 94-05 miata
Has it ever been positively confirmed that in the European market, all '94 and later cars came with what we, in North America, would consider to be the "1.8 style" diff, regardless of which engine the car was equipped with?
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Old 04-20-2016, 01:05 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdexta View Post
You need a 7" rearend from a 94-05 miata and 6 speed transmission would be a good idea. 300hp is about the limits of your turbo as well so if you're going for much "+" above that then probably add a bigger turbo and bigger injectors to the list too.
the limit of the turbo is around 330 hp. The 6 speed and lsd is what i also want to do. Better clutch. If i take a bigger turbo i got more lag.
GT2560r has around the 3150 - 6950 rpm full boost and the rev limiter kicks in around 7200. Thats my goal. It maybe spool not so fast as a gt2554r (around 300 rmp earlier) but it's boost is longer
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Old 04-20-2016, 01:13 PM   #9
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I have yet to see a 2560 make more then 300whp on a miata. I have known a few people who have gotten close, but not actually hit it. It is a longshot to say you will get there. I would go with a slightly larger turbo to start with to hit those numbers. The new EFR turbo's are what you want, or if you must stay garrett a GTX2871.
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Old 04-20-2016, 01:15 PM   #10
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is this mk2.5 head a bp4w aka 99-00 head?
also you'd need e85 to hit 300 on a 2560
its simply not happening on pump gas
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Old 04-20-2016, 01:26 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
I have yet to see a 2560 make more then 300whp on a miata. I have known a few people who have gotten close, but not actually hit it. It is a longshot to say you will get there. I would go with a slightly larger turbo to start with to hit those numbers. The new EFR turbo's are what you want, or if you must stay garrett a GTX2871.
i know it's a longshot but a garrett is rare here in europe and i don't know any company that sell a EFR in Europe. Most stuff need to come from the us. So i have probaly some issues with customs at the airport to pay extra tax on the parts.

a gt2560r in the us cost around the $1000 here it's around 750 a $850.

i don't what a efr will cost but it will be near the same price
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Old 04-20-2016, 01:34 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
is this mk2.5 head a bp4w aka 99-00 head?
also you'd need e85 to hit 300 on a 2560
its simply not happening on pump gas
it's the bp-ze head. I'm going to see a mechanic that build miata trackcars it's called the max5 cup in Europe. But probley go for the bp4w head because of the vvt.
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Old 04-20-2016, 05:35 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBoyMiata View Post
i don't know any company that sell a EFR in Europe.
Check these out:

Turbocharger
EFR Turbolader - Turbo-parts.de Ltd.
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Old 04-21-2016, 08:25 AM   #14
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Hi there from another Dutch guy!
I live near Utrecht, so not so far away. I used to go to school in Gouda (but that is more than 10 years ago!)
If you want help (I also speak Dutch) feel free to send me a PM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBoyMiata View Post
I'm planning to build a 300+ hp engine for street use.
If it is for street I would say try not to focus too much on the 300 bhp number, driveability and torque/response are also important factors on the street (or at least for me they are)

Quote:
i have a mk2.5 '03 engine with 85k m i want to use for the build.
Is it is a 1.6 or a 1.8? If it is a 1.6 I would start with swapping to a 1.8, that makes it much easier to get your power numbers and it also helps driveability.

Quote:
-mk 2.5 engine with/without vvt
-GT2560R
-Stand alone ecu
-Forged Pistons low compression
-Forged Rods
-FPR
-Intercooler
-Coolant Re-route
-Full 3" exhaust
-Bosch EV injectors 610 cc or more
-Gaspump fuel, standard octane is 95 or 98
Looks like a solid plan, do you already have an idea of specific parts?
If not I would give you some pointers:
Turbo: GT2560R seems like a good choice, but if you go for one with the internal gate you will have to port the internal gate and on ordinary RON98 fuel you will probably not see 300 bhp
The EFR6258 is a better choice for your numbers, also the technology of the EFR will improve response and driveability over the GT2560R. There are EFRs around here in Europe and I am pretty sure there will be some European distribitor in case you do not want to deal with customs.

Stand alone ECU: I would go for the Motorsport Electronics ME221 or a MS-3 based ECU (reverant/MSlabs being the easiest solution). This way you can maintain VVT

Injectors: go for EV14's and with your power number get something bigger than 600cc/min. If you want E85 in the future stick with something that is close to 1000cc/min.

Fuel: It is not impossible to get E85 in The Netherlands. My car will also be powered by E85.

Turbo manifold and down-pipe: You can source these in Europe / UK. To name a few manufacturers: Black cat fabrication, Revent shop (former Sturovo), G19 Engineering

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Has it ever been positively confirmed that in the European market, all '94 and later cars came with what we, in North America, would consider to be the "1.8 style" diff, regardless of which engine the car was equipped with?
I am pretty sure that all >1994 cars in Europe have the "1.8 style" diffs.
There are quite a few differences between USDM and EUDM cars which are often mistaken by 'internet experts' who think USDM and EUDM cars are identical.
To name a few:
-NB 1.6 have solid lifters and no CAS
-All EUDM 6 speed cars I came across have a 3.6:1 rear end
-EUDM NB's (Mk2) still have a return line for fuel, NB-FL (often called Mk2.5 in Europe/UK) have returnless fuel
-EUDM NBFL always have a flat-top intake manifold (although this is quite common knowledge here!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
is this mk2.5 head a bp4w aka 99-00 head?
also you'd need e85 to hit 300 on a 2560
its simply not happening on pump gas
Some people around here have a habit of calling the 99-00 NB the Mk2 and the 01-05 NB-FL the Mk2.5
The cylinder heads are the same as in the US: BP-4W for the 99-00 NB Mk2 and BP-ZE w/VVT for the 01-05 NBFL Mk2.5

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBoyMiata View Post
it's the bp-ze head. I'm going to see a mechanic that build miata trackcars it's called the max5 cup in Europe. But probley go for the bp4w head because of the vvt.
Go with the VVT head, it will work fine with a MS-3 or ME-221 ECU and it will give better torque and better spool compared to the BP-4W head.
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Old 04-21-2016, 09:04 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaWaN View Post
Hi there from another Dutch guy!
I live near Utrecht, so not so far away. I used to go to school in Gouda (but that is more than 10 years ago!)
If you want help (I also speak Dutch) feel free to send me a PM.


If it is for street I would say try not to focus too much on the 300 bhp number, driveability and torque/response are also important factors on the street (or at least for me they are)


Is it is a 1.6 or a 1.8? If it is a 1.6 I would start with swapping to a 1.8, that makes it much easier to get your power numbers and it also helps driveability.


Looks like a solid plan, do you already have an idea of specific parts?
If not I would give you some pointers:
Turbo: GT2560R seems like a good choice, but if you go for one with the internal gate you will have to port the internal gate and on ordinary RON98 fuel you will probably not see 300 bhp
The EFR6258 is a better choice for your numbers, also the technology of the EFR will improve response and driveability over the GT2560R. There are EFRs around here in Europe and I am pretty sure there will be some European distribitor in case you do not want to deal with customs.

Stand alone ECU: I would go for the Motorsport Electronics ME221 or a MS-3 based ECU (reverant/MSlabs being the easiest solution). This way you can maintain VVT

Injectors: go for EV14's and with your power number get something bigger than 600cc/min. If you want E85 in the future stick with something that is close to 1000cc/min.

Fuel: It is not impossible to get E85 in The Netherlands. My car will also be powered by E85.

Turbo manifold and down-pipe: You can source these in Europe / UK. To name a few manufacturers: Black cat fabrication, Revent shop (former Sturovo), G19 Engineering


I am pretty sure that all >1994 cars in Europe have the "1.8 style" diffs.
There are quite a few differences between USDM and EUDM cars which are often mistaken by 'internet experts' who think USDM and EUDM cars are identical.
To name a few:
-NB 1.6 have solid lifters and no CAS
-All EUDM 6 speed cars I came across have a 3.6:1 rear end
-EUDM NB's (Mk2) still have a return line for fuel, NB-FL (often called Mk2.5 in Europe/UK) have returnless fuel
-EUDM NBFL always have a flat-top intake manifold (although this is quite common knowledge here!)



Some people around here have a habit of calling the 99-00 NB the Mk2 and the 01-05 NB-FL the Mk2.5
The cylinder heads are the same as in the US: BP-4W for the 99-00 NB Mk2 and BP-ZE w/VVT for the 01-05 NBFL Mk2.5



Go with the VVT head, it will work fine with a MS-3 or ME-221 ECU and it will give better torque and better spool compared to the BP-4W head.
it's a 1.8 nb/fl. The I want to take the ecu of bs-autotune it's based on ms but without the support of vvt. The price with loom is about 700.
i want the full 3" exhaust and manifold from Reventshop. I look very nice and solid.
for the turbo i will Going to do some research about it. Thnx for the tip.
The injector size was based on some research on the forum and based on turbokits from begi and fm.
the number 300 is for me a goal to go for if it's posible but near 300 would be fine. Never had a car make more than 136 hp, that was on my mx-3 1.8 v6.

thnx again for the information and you will get a pb:-;
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Old 04-21-2016, 10:27 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueBoyMiata View Post
it's a 1.8 nb/fl. The I want to take the ecu of bs-autotune it's based on ms but without the support of vvt. The price with loom is about 700.
i want the full 3" exhaust and manifold from Reventshop. I look very nice and solid.
for the turbo i will Going to do some research about it. Thnx for the tip.
The injector size was based on some research on the forum and based on turbokits from begi and fm.
the number 300 is for me a goal to go for if it's posible but near 300 would be fine. Never had a car make more than 136 hp, that was on my mx-3 1.8 v6.
Ah yes, you live close to BS autotune, I never met him personally. I saw him selling his turbo MX-5 recently, looked like a nice built car from the pictures.
The ECUs he is selling are indeed based on MS-2 and lack VVT support. The VVT is a great way to get better spool and more mid-range torque, so I would choose an ECU which supports VVT.
The ME221 and Reverant's MS-3 basic both support VVT and plug in directly to your existing NB-FL wiring loom. I think DIYautotune also sells some DIYPNP variants which support VVT with a MS-3, but there you are once again bothered with customs (I do not know an European distributor of those ECUs). You can of course also build your own MS-3 which might turn out a bit cheaper than the Reverant / Motorsport Electronics / DIYautotune offerings.
The MS-2 based ECU with a BP-4W head might turn out cheaper still, but you will loose some torque, need to buy a cylinder head and you will need to do more wiring.
I also ordered a turbo kit including exhaust from Reventshop, so maybe he can send it in one go
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Old 04-21-2016, 10:31 AM   #17
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Sounds like you guys are on the right path
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Old 04-21-2016, 12:09 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaWaN View Post
Ah yes, you live close to BS autotune, I never met him personally. I saw him selling his turbo MX-5 recently, looked like a nice built car from the pictures.
The ECUs he is selling are indeed based on MS-2 and lack VVT support. The VVT is a great way to get better spool and more mid-range torque, so I would choose an ECU which supports VVT.
The ME221 and Reverant's MS-3 basic both support VVT and plug in directly to your existing NB-FL wiring loom. I think DIYautotune also sells some DIYPNP variants which support VVT with a MS-3, but there you are once again bothered with customs (I do not know an European distributor of those ECUs). You can of course also build your own MS-3 which might turn out a bit cheaper than the Reverant / Motorsport Electronics / DIYautotune offerings.
The MS-2 based ECU with a BP-4W head might turn out cheaper still, but you will loose some torque, need to buy a cylinder head and you will need to do more wiring.
I also ordered a turbo kit including exhaust from Reventshop, so maybe he can send it in one go
that's the difficult part, some say bp4w because of the vvt others say with vvt. Lucky the loom came with the engine. But a ms-3 or me221 will cost more than 1200. The ecu of bs-autotune will cost 700 but to keep the vvt i need a vvt controller. That will cost another 180 without shipping or customs. Bs-autotune is max 5km (2mile) away for me, so with troubleshooting he is closeby, if the car would run i can always tow the car to the shop.

but reventshop also deals in turbokit's? I thought he only sell exhaustsystems. Intresting.

btw is your nb red?
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Old 04-21-2016, 12:35 PM   #19
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Go with an MS3 of some sort. It is well worth the additional cost. BS-Autotune should be able to support and tune it no problem. Looking at their site they mainly deal with MS2 and if they can tune those, then a MS3 will be a piece of cake.
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Old 04-21-2016, 12:57 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
Go with an MS3 of some sort. It is well worth the additional cost. BS-Autotune should be able to support and tune it no problem. Looking at their site they mainly deal with MS2 and if they can tune those, then a MS3 will be a piece of cake.
thnx for the answer. His full ecu cost 1000 and a ms-3 will cost 1300. I think that i will spend the extra 's. Because the ms-3 is pnp and the bs-autotune is not, so i need to cut in the loom. I don't mind to do it but keep it pnp as possible. I'm little bit lazy
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