Z_WAAAAAZ

Engine bay’s looking good with all that carbon!

Glad you outlined all of your trials and tribulations this weekend. When @Fireindc mentioned you in his post, I thought: “Wow, I’m glad Ricardo had a hassle-free track day at least!” Live and learn I suppose!

Gee Emm

The keys - BTDT Can't remember how I fixed it though.

Also BTDT with difficulty of getting engine temps up to par. On my racecar, engine builder said to keep revs low until 80c, and on days that started in negative territory that was in practical terms impossible. A Laminova oil/coolant heat exchanger solved that - engine coolant heated the oil, then when oil needed cooling transfers heat to coolant, taken out by radiator. Worked a treat I could watch the temperatures climbing together idling in the paddock, oil lagging coolant, oil stabilised around mid 90s, coolant about 10c above that on-track or off. That was a full blown atmo racecar, that solution may not suffice for a big power turbo car though, perhaps not for desert temperatures either, but in more temperate/cooler climates is was a one-step fix.

SimBa

I wonder if you could find a 3d scan of the inside of the bumper and 3d print a duct to work with your intake. That is assuming you'd be OK cutting up your bumper of course. I might end up doing something similar to pull air up and into the engine bay by my intake box.

I assume that plastic tubing you're using came with the air box kit?

redursidae

thanks! I dig the carbon a lot. Now it needs an engine to match the drama

ha! Far from hassle-free but a lot was learnt!

It helps to know I’m not alone with the keys situation haha.

As far as oil temps, seems like my issue. It’s impossible to get the oil up to temp on the street on a cold day. I’m using the supermiata radiator with FM reroute and an 80C thermostat. For the engine swap I’ll be using a 90C thermostat but will certainly look into the heat exchanger you pointed to. Do you have any more details on this setup or is it relatively straight forward? Scooter will stay atmospheric, but will get a spicy engine at some point. So far it is grossly overcooled.

There is someone on here selling 3D scans, so that’s an option I’ll explore. I’m ok cutting the bumper for a duct. I also considered cutting the hood for a NACA duct as well but need to give it more thought. The hardest part is routing this 4” duct around things and away from radiator heat.

Nah, it didn’t come with the kit. It’s a Spectre 4” duct off Amazon.

Z_WAAAAAZ

Also BTDT with difficulty of getting engine temps up to par. On my racecar, engine builder said to keep revs low until 80c, and on days that started in negative territory that was in practical terms impossible. A Laminova oil/coolant heat exchanger solved that - engine coolant heated the oil, then when oil needed cooling transfers heat to coolant, taken out by radiator. Worked a treat I could watch the temperatures climbing together idling in the paddock, oil lagging coolant, oil stabilised around mid 90s, coolant about 10c above that on-track or off. That was a full blown atmo racecar, that solution may not suffice for a big power turbo car though, perhaps not for desert temperatures either, but in more temperate/cooler climates is was a one-step fix.[/QUOTE]

This is good food for thought. My oil temps (and coolant temps too somewhat) take much longer than I'd like to get up to temp on the street. I should not have deleted the factory oil "cooler" from my car.

Gee Emm

Overcooled is good, if you go down this path you will need that cooling as it will also be your oil cooler too.



Radiator outlet flows through heat exchanger to mixer manifold - ie it replaces a section of that hose. Otherwise AN fittings like you might use on any oil cooler setup. I used double -12 fittings to do the U-turn, but that might have been overkill. I wondered about the effect on oil pressure of the long run (filter located on shelf behind RHS headlight), but none detectable, using a mildly shimmed stock OP. I got mine here.

I cringe every time I see that photo - the crud! But for the greater good, there you have it!

curly

iTrader: (25)

FYI the 94-05 oil/water heat exchanger is $372 from Mazda motorsports. The slightly larger 04-05 mazdaspeed exchanger is $171, both in stock.

I've got the Mazdaspeed unit, SM radiator, SM reroute, no other oil cooler, 300+hp, and a temp sensor in the oil pan. I struggle to get oil temps over 200 degrees even on a summer day on my ~18 mile commute home that includes both stop/go traffic, freeway cruising, and as many 0-70(+)mph pulls as I can fit in.

Gee Emm

I hear you Curly. I'm glad that these are working for you.

However the water flow through that device is very low, especially compared to the flow out of the radiator. Specifically, it was never intended to cool the oil of a high-revving racecar, nor a high-output turbo, which that one is. The stocker will help, but my racecar had it removed and i don't think I ever contemplated re-installing one - my initial focus was on cooling, but the heating function was a 'two-for-the-price-of-one'.

I wasn't aware that the MSM one was larger, mine is I think still in place and plumbed, I must have another look and see if I can log some temperatures and compare oil and water traces.

sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

In cooler weather, the old school cheap adjustment was a small cardboard "thermostat" to keep the temps up. Tractor trailers still do it using snap on grille covers. Crude but cheap and effective. Could be done with coroplast yard sign material

OptionXIII

This thread continues to deliver the goods! The Miata and XJ garage is a great combo.

Yeah proper control of the tank purge is critical, both in terms of controlling the solenoid, and incorporating o2 feedback. Certainly what you did should be an improvement in terms of gas smell, but obviously there are limitations. I used to work in engine calibration for an OEM, we'd do worst case testing by driving terribly (sharp inputs to gas, brake, steering) to churn up the winter blend fuel in a mostly empty gas tank, in the Las Vegas strip in August to see if we could overwhelm the control limits of the o2 feedback loop and fuel evap fraction estimates. Fun times!

I didn't realize the Mazdaspeed ones were still available, I'll keep that in mind. I'd like to find one that uses larger coolant hoses too, but with zero data I'm not sure how necessary that is. Not that I need it. With a stock 2001 engine and ECU and a 36mm Koyo with a well sealed radiator mouth, I couldn't get the oil temp above 250 at the sandwich plate even after 1 hour on track earlier this spring. Hopefully that will hold as the summer comes around and the radiator has to work a bit harder.

OP, I'm not sure you need such a hard rev limit for oil temp on a stock block. Maybe once you've got a wild built motor to match the rest of the car!

redursidae

This is great info, @curly . Thank you. I'll order one of the MSM exchangers and see how it compares. The truth is that I struggle to get the temps above 150F on the street unless I'm abusing the car on the mountains, then it touches 170F sometimes. If a 300+whp turbo setup struggles, what hopes do I have on this 120whp kitty?

Thank you for sharing this. I'll add it to my research projects in case the MSM exchanger doesn't work on the next motor. Am I understanding correctly that with an 80C thermostat on a ~150whp 7500RPM VVT Miata this manifold should warmup and cool the oil effectively?

Ah yes! I didn't consider this to help oil temps, but maybe I should play with that. So block half the radiator or something like that?

Thanks! I saw a bit ago another XJ owner around here. Is that you? The XJ is fun too, but for the opposite reason of the Miata haha. Fun fact on the XJ; it's a 4.7 stroker with higher compression than the current BP-4W in Scooter. Sounds like a baby diesel .

I would be interested to learn more about purge control if you have any info to share. I understand you may have an NDA, but even if you could point me to research or white papers I would appreciate that. Hell, any and all info on tuning is welcomed. Looking around purge control in the Haltech software, it seems they have provisions for tank pressure, and can change the O2 feedback algorithm based on purge control duty cycle too. Seeing that made me wonder what else I'm overlooking and your comment now really hits home. If it's also a matter of "just send it, you'll be fine", then I'll do just that. This is mainly a science project for me.

Noted on the rev limit. I easily overthink and get overly concerned about this stuff. A wild motor is certainly needed, but the ETA for that keeps sliding at the moment.

OptionXIII

I do have an XJ myself! It's a 1999. It's pretty mild, more like a restoration than a trail build. But it was a RWD base model with just about every mechanical component on it worn out when I got it, and now it's a full time 4wd Up Country top spec clone. My next project for it is a manual swap, but my rule is I can only play in the garage with one 24 year old daily driver at a time. I'm having second thoughts about using it to tow the Miata around on a dolly as a manual, and tracking a car comes with enough risk of balling it up that I'm hesitant to have my other car be torn apart close to a track day.

Sorry I can't be of too much more use on the evap system, purge wasn't my area of responsibility. I just helped test on it. All the references I had were internal documents, no longer available to me, and mostly focused on understanding and troubleshooting the software logic rather than tuning a system from scratch. I loved that job, but I could see the writing on the wall and got out of that job after only 3 years. 18 months later, the team doesn't exist anymore and all of my coworkers were walked out the door regardless of performance or experience.

I think an 80c thermostat is way too low, personally. Remember that the thermostat only controls the minimum temperature. Once any thermostat is fully open, cooling is a function of airflow, coolant flow, and radiator performance. This will also affect your oil temperature, and could be part of why you're struggling to get oil temps up. The rest of your cooling system is top tier and you're not pushing boost. I may have missed it when rereading the thread, but is there a reason you don't want a higher temp?

redursidae

Sick! Nice to meet another XJ owner here. I was never into Jeeps until I saw this one and it changed my mind. This XJ went through a similar transformation as yours. It started as a 2WD automatic driven into the ground. Previous owner did all the work, so I’m just driving it! Probably taking off-roading this weekend.

no worries on the EVAP stuff. Glad you didn’t need a lifeboat off that sinking ship!

As for the thermostat, I’m using it because that’s what FM recommended when I installed the reroute. Back then I didn’t have an oil temp sensor to know it was overcooled though. After hearing @curly’s experience, the feedback on this thread, and seeing how @Fireindc has no cooling issues at the track it’s clear 80 may be too low. I have a 90C one waiting to be installed with the engine swap, so we shall see!

Z_WAAAAAZ

Saw these replies earlier and decided to pull a datalog from a car I had to road test this morning. This is an '18 Ecoboost Mustang cruising at about 45mph under steady part throttle on a nearly full tank. Pulled up PIDs for AFR, canister purge valve duty cycle, fuel tank pressure, EGO control (LONGFT/SHRTFT), MAP and TP. Option, maybe you can answer my question here. You can see the purge valve duty cycle ramp up in the second half of the log, maxing out at nearly 100%. AFR, however, stays pretty steady and EGO doesn't seem to move around or correlate with the purge valve opening. It sounds like this would go against what you said above, but is the purge valve duty cycle partially compensated for as part of the open loop strategy? That's the conclusion my pea brain garnered from the data shown.

Sorry in advance for potential thread derailment. If it gets out of hand, I'll make a separate thread.

Edit: maybe the EGO control change is only barely noticeable because I had the viewing parameters set so wide when I took that snapshot. I deleted the log so might have to take another one and not set the max/min to +/-35%

OptionXIII

No you got it right, the ECU should compensate for purge vapors in fuel calcs for how much to inject. I was oversimplifying. The o2 feedback (along with inlet air flow, fuel actually injected, purge valve duty cycle, etc) then can be used to estimate the percentage of evap airflow that is fuel volatiles, which goes into the next set of fuel volume calculations. It should be estimating the fuel going in from evap and subtracting that from the amount of fuel to inject. Point being, a lot of factors go into proper evap control which is why using a set PWM cycle for tank purge, then relying on o2 feedback to deal with the extra fuel vapor flow isn't going to be ideal. Especially if you're tuning at cruise on the highway, but experiencing the issue after full throttle canyon runs where the fuel is sloshing everywhere. Fuel blend, temperature, slosh, and level are all going to impact the vapor fraction. But you can probably get it better than it is now with fuel blowing out of the tank!

Tying back to XJs, at least for the later OBDII years I know and have driven, you'll hear a rhythmic clicking for the first few minutes after you drive. That's the evap solenoid on the firewall getting PWM'd to purge out the charcoal canister. Fun fact, for EPA fuel economy and emissions testing, the evap canister is fully loaded with some kind of volatile product (propane? butane? I can't recall) until the canister is overloaded and "breakthrough" is achieved, when a sniffer on the back side of the evap canister can detect the stuff coming through.

Anyway, sorry for the thread jack.

Z_WAAAAAZ

Heck yeah, thanks for the explanation! I figured that's more or less what was going with fuel calculations/EGO on but never really thought about it until I took that log. That's cool how many factors via the evap system alone go into the final fuel delivery calculation, though!

A good portion of my job is diagnosing evap leaks but the focus there doesn't generally have anything to do with the ECU tune strategy haha.

Thread jack over, thanks.

redursidae

Sweet!! That’s all great info really. I was wondering about how OEMs do these sort of things. Thank you both.

I haven’t looked at the car this week. Trying to reset from the happenings of last weekend. Next task is to check the camber bolts, swap to street tires, and finish getting the BP-6D ready to swap in this month. Zak was awesome to send me tail end for a NB1 6 speed to hopefully repair the damaged one I received. I’ll get pictures together for another update this weekend.

sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

Yes, on the tractor trailers with the larger radiators and cooling packages made for crossing the Rocky Mountains at higher altitudes with slow airflow going up grades in the summer, they block much of the radiator inlet during the winter in flatter country to maintain operating temperature better. The thermal shock of having water that is too cold coming into one end of the block is a concern.


It really sounds like your coolant thermostat is not staying closed enough though. Or is too low a temperature. Shouldn't start flowing until 180° or so.

Fireindc

iTrader: (13)

Holy hell, I love all the info being thrown around in this thread. I also LOVE mt.net, and how we're still going strong in 2024 when most other forums have bit the dust. The community here rules, and Zac sending Ricardo a tailshaft for his damaged (in shipping) transmission is exactly what I'm talking about. I have no doubt that if I end up in Zac's neck of the woods that he'd take the shirt off his back to help me out. Maybe I'm just feeling emotional, but love y'all. I think Ricardo and I need to try and make that gridlife event at PPIR when Zac goes. I gotta look on the calendar and see if that's possible. Never done a gridlife event but sounds fun, and PPIR is good fun (except the oval with that huuuuuuuge dip).

Z_WAAAAAZ

Nate, you’re gonna make me tear up haha Seriously, I’m with you. This forum is the best. I’d probably still be driving my car with a stock engine or even something else altogether if not for your guys’ help. It’s funny having to explain to my dad and friends “No really, this forum I get most of my help and information from isn’t full of idiots and armchair engineers!”

Seemed too perfect that I had two complete 6 speeds laying around just waiting to be used for parts lol. Glad to be able to help out!

Don’t tempt me, Nate. TBH, I haven’t given PPIR much more thought since I posted it here. My buddy David with the K-swapped NB was milling it over but blew his clutch out recently and is gathering parts to do an 8HP transmission swap. Point being: I dunno how long his car is gonna be down for. If you and /or Ricardo are down, I’d 100% commit to PPIR. It’s a Global Time Attack event, so you’ll need to message to Jason, the head official. Maybe you, me and Ricardo oughtta exchange numbers and start a group chat.